Got Audio?

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Got Audio?

Postby DL126 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:24 am

Installed a set of these for a customer some time ago and decided to get myself a set.

http://biz.tigerdirect.com/applications ... u=L23-6334

HOLY ****!!! What a system!

For gaming, music, movies ... ect.
I haven't heard sound like this since I quit the DJ biz a few years ago.

I highly recommend this system if you're looking for "blow the walls down" sound.
In my experience, better sound than this will cost you MUCHO dollars.

One note:
There is no Bass & Treble control provided in the system.
You'll have to adjust that via your PC.
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby hercules71185 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:04 am

I can vouch for this. I have the z740 5.1 now. And heard it next to my friends house I was living at. And he had those. My speakers are great. But, FAR less as good as those. Only thing I can say is you can find them cheaper tho. and not soo much shipping
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby ScottLovesDogs » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:54 pm

Ahhh . . . I don't know about this.

Please forgive me, but my motivation here is to take my nearly lifelong (I'm 52) hobby as an audiophile and my almost as long experience with electronics and computers (built my first computer with a soldering iron in 1976, a SWTPC 6800) and let you, presumably younger guys, see and hopefully benefit from my perspective. Am not trying to be mean or anything.

Look up this system on Logitech's web site, the specs are horrible, the rated power is at a THD of 10%, yes TEN percent. That is well above the limit of audibility. They are using a very high total harmonic distortion limit to rate the output power so that they can put a "big" and presumably attractive number on the box.

Further, they quote the frequency response as being 33Hz to 20KHz, but don't specify a tolerence, like +0, -3dB or something like that. You have no way of knowing how far down the response is at either end of the bandwidth.

That system may sound good, but it also costs a significant chunck of change. I would be inclined to put the roughly $250 aside and save up for something really worth it. Even if it cost $500 to $1000 eventually. Also, I'd make sure that whatever I buy would be built to last for far longer than the warranty period. Stuff that you can hand down to your kids someday is the best deal you can get. Sadly the marketing today is mostly aimed at fleecing as much as companies can get from people and then doing it again in a few years.

Sorry to rant, and I do truely hope that Logitech proves me wrong with the quality of the build of this system, but just wanted to share the lessons of my experience with you guys.

And, yes, I do have a decent audio/speaker system attached to my computer. It is one that I saved up for and built up bit by bit. Please, do ask me about it! :mrgreen:
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby DMB2000uk » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:08 pm

I'm not asking because you told me, but what kit do you have?

And what kit would you recommend in this price range? :P
(not that I'm likely to spend this much on speakers, yet)

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Re: Got Audio?

Postby ScottLovesDogs » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:17 pm

The whole system is stereo, not any type of surround. It does just fine for me that way.

My computer's audio system, which is going to be replaced by an M-Audio Audiophile 192 card soon, is connected by line-level in and out connections to:

McIntosh C28 Preamplifier, output of which goes to -
McIntosh MQ101 Equalizer (required by the speakers, below), output of which goes to -
McIntosh MC 2205 Power Amplifier
200 Watts per channel Average continuous power, at or below 0.1%THD (typical is below 0.01%)
bandwidth is 20Hz to 20KHz +0/-0.25dB and 10Hz to 100KHz +0/-3dB, weight (in L-14 walnut case) 100 lb.
Speakers: McIntosh ML-2C
5-way, 6 drivers - 2 X 12" woofers, 8" lower midrange, 1.5" fabric dome mid-midrange, 1.5" fabric dome upper-midrange
2 1/4" tweeter, bandwidth is 20Hz to 20KHz, +/-0dB, Size: 29"H, 28-3/8"W and 21-3/8"D, Weight: 144 lb. each

Other components:
FM tuner: Sony ST-5600 (I can't afford a McIntosh MR 77 yet, see previous post about saving up, etc. But the little Sony is surprisingly good at what it does - especially considering that I got it on eBay for $1 + $20 shipping and an MR 77 would be at least $400 plus shipping)
CD player: Sony CDP-608 ESD (dual 16-bit Burr-Brown DACs, coax and TOSlink digital outs)
Turntable: Revox B791 linear tracking tonearm, Stanton 681 EEE MK III cartridge
Tape Deck: Revox A77 MK III open reel tape deck, High speed/half track model, speeds 7.5 ips and 15 ips

As soon as I can set up an account to host images so I can link them from here, I'll post some photos from last April and May. And, by tomorrom when I get the camera's battery recharged, I'll post a couple of the speakers and the system now.

Recommendation in the $250 to $400 price range: Just what I bought my 23-year old daughter, a nice Tandberg receiver and McIntosh ML-1C speakers (4 way, without the ML-2's mid-midrange, and only one 12" woofer). She can hook up her computer (a Fujitsu laptop) and the sound is phenomenal. Her receiver is a Tandberg TD-2060, a "real" 60 watts continuous per channel. "Real" is in quotes because I kind of clearly don't think Logitech's power rating or most on computer speakers that you get these days are very honest or "real."
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby ScottLovesDogs » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:36 pm

Here is a quick post of the main part of the system. Was actually a photo of the motherboard tray from my system (see signature) showing how I got the whole watercooling system on the removable motherboard tray.

Will post speakers and maybe more tomorrow.

Stack on the right, top to bottom:
Revox A77 open reel tape deck,
McIntosh C28 Preamplifier
McIntosh MC2205 Power Amplifier

On the left, the Revox B791 turntable, which is on top of the Sony CD player, but the exposure was for the motherboard tray, so the CD player just looks like a black blob.

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Re: Got Audio?

Postby DMB2000uk » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:59 pm

That looks oldschool? Is it?

And my audiophile knowledge is practically none, but that setup sounds like a beast :P

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Re: Got Audio?

Postby ScottLovesDogs » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:30 pm

DMB2000uk wrote:That looks oldschool? Is it?
Dan


Quite, but of performance and quality that is, sadly, very rare today. Not only does it sound great, but it will last at least until it goes to my grandchildren. And it is all still supported, at least the McIntosh components.

My main point was that by saving up and shopping very carefully it is possible to both get better quality and get off of the merry-go-round of being sold stuff that only lasts a short while then having to buy it again, repeat over and over for life. Best to save up, buy it once and move to other things. The whole disposable lifestyle that we are being sold today is nothing but a rip off. And those who practice it victimize the young the most.

Knowledge is power, some places to gain knowledge of all things audio:
http://www.audiokarma.org
http://www.homerecording.com
http://www.roger-russell.com He is the former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Labs and designer of all their speakers from 1967 to December 1992. Lots of reading here under the McIntosh Laboratory, Inc History link on the home page. Few people have ever done as much to debunk audio myths, some that were very, very expensive myths, as Roger and McIntosh labs. Much interesting reading under the speaker wire and audio distortions links.

I'll post some more links to audiophile stuff later.
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby DL126 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:43 pm

ScottLovesDogs wrote:Ahhh . . . I don't know about this.

Please forgive me, but my motivation here is to take my nearly lifelong (I'm 52) hobby as an audiophile and my almost as long experience with electronics and computers (built my first computer with a soldering iron in 1976, a SWTPC 6800) and let you, presumably younger guys, see and hopefully benefit from my perspective. Am not trying to be mean or anything.

Look up this system on Logitech's web site, the specs are horrible, the rated power is at a THD of 10%, yes TEN percent. That is well above the limit of audibility. They are using a very high total harmonic distortion limit to rate the output power so that they can put a "big" and presumably attractive number on the box.

Further, they quote the frequency response as being 33Hz to 20KHz, but don't specify a tolerence, like +0, -3dB or something like that. You have no way of knowing how far down the response is at either end of the bandwidth.

That system may sound good, but it also costs a significant chunck of change. I would be inclined to put the roughly $250 aside and save up for something really worth it. Even if it cost $500 to $1000 eventually. Also, I'd make sure that whatever I buy would be built to last for far longer than the warranty period. Stuff that you can hand down to your kids someday is the best deal you can get. Sadly the marketing today is mostly aimed at fleecing as much as companies can get from people and then doing it again in a few years.

Sorry to rant, and I do truely hope that Logitech proves me wrong with the quality of the build of this system, but just wanted to share the lessons of my experience with you guys.

And, yes, I do have a decent audio/speaker system attached to my computer. It is one that I saved up for and built up bit by bit. Please, do ask me about it! :mrgreen:



Yea I know about all that Total Harmonic Distortion stuff, as well as Hz, KHz, +/- dB and so forth.
But I decided to forgo all that technical mumbo jumbo just to say that this is the best sound I've heard since I got rid of the $8 - $10K worth of sound equipment that I had before.
Yup ... as in Thousands of dollars worth of Mackie, & Electro Voice equipment. 8400 total watts @ .01% THD w/ 120" of speaker surface. (Yea ... it would "bump")
So as unlikely as it might seem since I'm bragging on Logitec, I'm no stranger to high end audio equipment.
And as a side note, I appreciate you referring to me as a "younger guy" as I'm not very far behind yourself. :)
I got started as a DJ rather late in life. :)

As for ratings, specs, and so on ...
Anything can be made to look good on paper.
They're always a good place to start .... but I tend to rely more on the ears.

And as for price ....
I thought this Logitec setup was dirt cheap considering what it sounds like.
Even the wireless mic I used before was more than $250.00.
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby ScottLovesDogs » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:38 pm

DL126 wrote:
As for ratings, specs, and so on ...
Anything can be made to look good on paper.

Which is exactly my point about how Logitech manages a deceptively high power rating for those speakers. You need full specs, not half-assed ones, and they need to be done ethically and honestly. Not driven by marketing.

DL126 wrote:They're always a good place to start .... but I tend to rely more on the ears.


As do I. But I also respect knowledge of accurate specifications and their corelation to the quality of sound.

I wasn't meaning to demean you or the Logitech speakers at all, but perhaps I came on a bit strong and could be misinterpreted to have been.

I stand by my philosophy as stated above. While the Logitechs may well be very good as computer speakers, their THD at their rated power is well above the point where it will become audible. You couldn't even begin to push them to their limits before you'd hear it. Further, how long could the speakers or amp take being driven at that level? And the most important point is that, even though they are brand new, they probably won't last as long as my 30 year old McIntosh amp, or any McIntosh or Mackie amplifier (or Tandberg receiver, or Revox amp/receiver, etc). I guess that I am stressing the overall social/economic ramifications of the changes in our society since the heydays of the "Stereo Era," the late 1960's and 1970's as well as the actual sound from the speakers. I kind of keyed in on the speakers as a metaphor for all of that and got off on a rant. But I still stand by what I said.

And, one must account for the spatial or imaging effects of having a surround sound system that can easily make a so-so system be perceived as better sounding than it is. Yet another reason that I dislike surround systems.

Since you are still a youngster :lol: you probably have yet to experience getting all worked up over very broad social changes just by seeing something little (like computer speakers being touted as sounding great) that just sets you off. You are apparently going to have to wait a few more years before you begin enjoying your own senior moments.
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby Methious » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:26 pm

Guess it's a good thing I'm half deaf, cause I'm perfectly happy with a set of Wal-Mart $70 dollar set of Dolby 5.1 speakers. I guess I could just go and fire up my full sized Wurlitzer cabinet stereo/turntable. Or my Ipod knock off, they all sound good to me.
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby hercules71185 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:02 pm

yea, the audio is not like my krell set. As I am an audiophile too. But, the ratings are all BS anyways. 10% to .01% its all BS no ratings are consistent. Look up krell reference and tell me they are bad lol
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby hercules71185 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:05 pm

as for the 30 year old set vs new. I had a pair of concert speakers. Yes the ones from Coral sky in palm beach fl.
They were from 1988. I got them in 2003. My speakers that are half the size and quarter the rating. BLEW THEM AWAY. they were loud. They were the best out at the time. But, technology changes everything
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby hercules71185 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:32 pm

My setup.
3 krell reference speakers. 2 left and right and 1 front. Infinity black chrome for my back 2 and surround 2.
Pioneer 1015tx for my receiver.
15" earthquake self amplified sub.
10" earthquake self amplified sub.

Speakers were very low cost for doing an installation for a guy and basically receiving his old stuff.
its good and never have I heard better. Even the install I did. Was better. But, the room was so huge so it wasn't as crisp. In my room..anyone is impressed. Bass that vibrates your chest. And perfect audio for any movie. I do tend to turn up the back speakers more just since movies don't seem to utilize them :-D
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby stev » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:16 pm

Methious wrote:Guess it's a good thing I'm half deaf, cause I'm perfectly happy with a set of Wal-Mart $70 dollar set of Dolby 5.1 speakers. I guess I could just go and fire up my full sized Wurlitzer cabinet stereo/turntable. Or my Ipod knock off, they all sound good to me.


Ditto for me too. :(

My hearing was wasted at concerts back in the late 80's and the 90's. So, any good sounding system to me is without having much bass.

Two things I really regret in life, one is going to those concerts with the blaring music and the second listening to my head-phones (today called ear buds) turned up way too loud.

Sound is really great if used in moderation. Preserve your hearing listening to the music at a good sensible level for years to follow. Don't blow away your ears. You only have two them for life!
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby hercules71185 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:40 am

I got everything cheap. And listen to music basically 24/7. So I like having something crisp on my desk. And for the occasion of watching a movie I do have people over and turn it up. But, its nothing like a concert lol. I can listen to a song or 2 at a time loud to get me pumped up for the gym. But, then after that I have to turn it down. When I was younger I made my eardrums tough I'm convinced. I used to listen to my studio headphones as loud as they went. and fall asleep with it on lol.
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby vicaphit » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:10 pm

Durabrand POS surroundsound does the job for me, the only grief I have is that the satalite speakers don't last very long. I may buy something more "durable", if you will, when I am fed up with these.
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Re: Got Audio?

Postby martini161 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:29 pm

wattage isnt really a very important factor, unless your blaring music all day. in my opinion thd and frequency response in more important. for my pc, i have some cheap 5.1 logitech 140wat speakers. but for my stereo/home theater, i have some very nice mackie speakers hooked up to a pioneer reciver, and for my stereo a pair of klipsch studio moniters hooked up to an old reciver with .001 thd (its really better than that, but .001 is as low as the machine would go :P )
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