Building a New Computer...need opinions

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nForcer227
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Building a New Computer...need opinions

Post by nForcer227 »

Ok, i havent put a computer together in 2 years...i think its time for an upgrade...Technology is so advanced i havent kept up with it...So now i got a few questions to help me build a new computer. Along with the build im going for. My use out of the computer will be High-end 3d Work and Gaming (WoW mainly)

Tell me what u think
  • CPU: Pentium 4 650 (3.4ghz)
  • Motherboard: ASUS P5AD2-E Deluxe
  • Video Card: ASUS GeForce7800 GTX PCI EXPRESS(?)
  • Soundcard: Onboard for temporary use (will upgrade later on)
  • RAM: 2 Sticks of Corsair PC4200 DDR2-533 1gb (total 2gb dual channel)
  • Hard-drive: Seagate 120GB Serial ATA
  • DVD-Burner: Asus 16x8x16 DVD+RW
  • CPU Fan: Thermaltake Tower 112 Copper Heat Pipe Cooler
Total: Will run me for about 1400-1500

I am going with an Intel computer this time b/c Overheating is an Issue in my house and AMD seem to break down with to much heat...I got a pet, carpeting and its hot as hell outside

Questions:

1. Which is best for gaming and high-end 3d Renders (aka working with maya and so on) - PCI-Express Video cards or AGP 8x?

2. Any Suggestion on cases for the motherboard im getting and good ventalation. Also if there is front usb ports thats a plus for me. 8)

3. LCD monitors...I want one for gaming without the ghosting effect, Do i need something faster than 15ms-20ms?

I cant think of any other questions atm, but they will come to me as the thread builds up.

Thank you!
Danny

Feel free to contact me via email or aim.
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Re: Building a New Computer...need opinions

Post by gvblake22 »

nForcer227 wrote:1. Which is best for gaming and high-end 3d Renders (aka working with maya and so on) - PCI-Express Video cards or AGP 8x?
You're gonna want to stick with PCI-Express with video cards if at all possible. Not because they are faster than an equivalent AGP version (which they are not), but because prettymuch all new video cards from here on out will only be made in PCI-Express versions. So if you are buying all new hardware now, you should definately take a PCI-Express offering.
As far as gaming performance, the 7800GTX is prettymuch top dog. If you really want the best of the best, the 512mb 7800GTX was just released, but it comes with a hefty pricetag and I don't think it is quite worth it yet for the price they are going for right now. ATI's X1800XT is another great card that is about on par with the 7800GTX. Both will run about any game you throw at it with full AA and AF.
As for high-end 3D rendering, the workstation graphics cards (nVidia Quadro or ATI FireGL) are going to be the best, but I don't think they will hold up as well in gaming. But I'm sure a 24 pixel pipeline card like the 7800GTX will be able to render some schtuff if you get what I'm sayin'...
nForcer227 wrote:2. Any Suggestion on cases for the motherboard im getting and good ventalation. Also if there is front usb ports thats a plus for me. 8)
When considering cases, you have probably noticed that there literally probably a thousand choices. But since it is hard to recommend specific cases because of your preferences on looks and functionality, I'll just tell you what I look for in a case:
  • 120mm fans!!! Preferably one in front and another in the back (or at least the option to add one of your own if the case does not come with a fan installed).
  • Open, unobstructed, direct paths for air circulation. You don't want a case that tries to pull air in through a series of doors and small vents and openings that take several 90 degree turns. The whole cooling scheme of the case should make sense too. For example, a case with three 120mm intake fans and a single 80mm exhaust fan is not a sensible cooling scheme.
  • Removeable trays and cages. It is very convient for upgrades and setup and cleaning to be able to remove the motherboard tray or the hard drive cage.
  • This last point is somewhat subjective depending on your hobbies and likes/dislikes. But when I choose a case, I like to consider it's modding potential. If you are not into cutting up your brand new shiny case, then this isn't an issue for you. But if you are like me and love to tinker with different cooling schemes and customize the look and funtctionality of your case with a 35,000rpm dremel tool in hand, then coming up with a list of possible mods could be a good thing. That way when you start to narrow down your case choices, you can also judge them based on how well/easy you could complete your modding ideas on that particular case, or how easily you could adapt or modify your mod ideas to fit a case you like.
nForcer227 wrote:3. LCD monitors...I want one for gaming without the ghosting effect, Do i need something faster than 15ms-20ms?
Yes. I've read that some people will not buy anything with a response time slower than 8ms. But then I see others who cannot tell the difference between 8ms and 12ms. But I would say don't get anything slower than 12ms. But response time is not the end all specification for an LCD. You should also consider the contrast ratio which is basically how dark the darks are and how bright the brights can be. The higher the contrast ratio (usually expressed as 300:1 or 350:1), the better. A contrast ratio of at least 300:1 would be very good. Some even go as high as 600:1 or 700:1! The last major specification to consider is the brightness. This isn't quite as critical as response time or contrast ratio, but can still affect how quality a monitor is. Most all LCD's are going to be bright enough, but one with at least 250 or 300cd/m should be good.

As far as your actual hardware choices, they look very good. You might also want to check out an AMD system as the Athlon 64's and X2's seem to be performing much better in games than even the more expensive intel Pentium 4 6XX series or Pentium D's. The AMD Athlon 64 3700 with the San Diego core (1mb L2 cache) is a very popular gaming processor as it comes with good price and performance.

And I'm not sure if you are considering jumping on the Dual Core bandwagon, but currently, games cannot efficiently utilize both cores on the dual core chips so there is really no performance increase from the dual core processors over the single cores. So purely from a gaming standpoint, single core chips are still the way to go. But from a multi-use/multitasking point of view, dual core processors can offer you much more than any single core processor can. So just decide how much you are willing to spend and what types of uses you will primarily be concerned with.

Oh, and one last thing. Your CPU cooler of choice is not one of my favorites as it is really big and bulky and just more than I would ever want hanging off of my motherboard. You should check out the Thermalright XP-90 for a good priced, good performing air cooling solution. For top end air, check out the Thermalright SI-120 or XP-120 or Thermaltake Big Typhoon.

I could go on forever about this stuff, so I'll let you take all that in and post back with any Q's you might have :)
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Post by gvblake22 »

Check out these two links for CPU gaming performance, as well as the benefit (or lack thereof) to having 2Gb of RAM over 1Gb:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... games.html

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... ames2.html
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Post by Kerii »

Well, seems gvblake answered most of your questions, but I think it might be worth noting the 7800GTX will be overkill for a game like WoW unless you plan to run at 1600x1200 with 4xAA 16xAF with maxed settings. :P

It never hurts to be future proof, but if you really aren't planning on playing anything else for a long time, and of course, running at your LCD's native resolution (probably less than 1600x1200 unless you're getting a $1000 monitor), then a 6800GS, 800XT, or a 7800GT would be more than adequate.

And... I don't know how you handle all your work, but whenever I do graphics/video work, I always end up with a TON of junk material and extras that I may or may not need, and 120GB just seems a bit too small. I'd recommend at least a 250GB just to be safe. It's not like they're that expensive anymore. :mrgreen:
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Post by gvblake22 »

Very good comments Kerii. Thanks for the input :)
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Post by killswitch83 »

* CPU: Pentium 4 650 (3.4ghz)
* Motherboard: ASUS P5AD2-E Deluxe
* Video Card: ASUS GeForce7800 GTX PCI EXPRESS(?)
* Soundcard: Onboard for temporary use (will upgrade later on)
* RAM: 2 Sticks of Corsair PC4200 DDR2-533 1gb (total 2gb dual channel)
* Hard-drive: Seagate 120GB Serial ATA
* DVD-Burner: Asus 16x8x16 DVD+RW
* CPU Fan: Thermaltake Tower 112 Copper Heat Pipe Cooler
ok, here's my take, and it's around the same price as the current config you want, but it's AMD with some great components:

  • CPU: AMD X2 3800+ (OC it to around 2.4, 2.5 if you're feeling ballzy)
    Mobo: DFI Ultra Infinity
    Video Card: XFX 7800GTX PCI-Express
    Sound: use onboard, as it's pretty good
    RAM: 1 GB * 2 OCZ PC4800 EL Platinum (great timings, good OC in my opinion, at least from what I've been reading up about them)
    HDD: Hitachi Deskstar 250GB (good reliable drive)
    DVD-RW: Sony 16x Dual-Layer
    CPU Cooler: Thermalright SI-120 or XP-90C (would go for the XP-90C just due to the fact it's all copper and is very likely to conduct heat more efficiently for its size, though a SI-120 would be comparable due to the size of the heatsink and CFM rating of the fan)


Now, make sure you save aside enough for a good PSU and case. Personally, and I know Capper will love me for this one, lol, the Sonata II is a good pick. It has a 120mm fan in it (can't remember if it's front, rear, or both) and a plastic shroud to put fans in for expansion card cooling mainly, but I would take it out and just make sure you have 2 120mm case fans in it just to be sure. It comes with a SmartPower 2.0 450W PSU, a good PSU but the TruePower II is better, the 550W unit is also at a good price at around $89 at Newegg, and it has 2 12V+ rails, which is stable when you look at the specs concerning current. Also, what should be noted is while the Infinity Ultra mobo is pretty decent at OC'ing (3.2v max for memory and I think 1.85v for the vcore), it would be recommended if you replace the factory northbridge cooler with something more stout and some Arctic Silver 5. Anyways, this is the config I will more than likely go with, give or take a few modifications (i.e. cooling mods for the case, UV lighting with UV reactant sleeving and heatshrink, etc, etc)....of course if you want, a good healthy mix of some of the interchangeable components like the PSU, case, and HDD with a P4 implementation would probably work out well too....but to be quite honest, the thermal spec and power usage on the AMD X2 chips is lower by a good bit than Intel's desktop offerings. Now, in the future, if it's a notebook you want, I would go die-hard Intel all the way, with the Pentium M T1600 dual-core that's coming out soon (those Yonah cores are going to be a sight once Intel gets the 65nm process down right and can get these processors stable and running at the low wattages they say, which I think is like as low as 15W for the T1600). anyways, check out those desktop parts I have listed, and I say if you see something you like....go for it!! Time for you to have some fun now :) :mrgreen:
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Post by Black Mesa Scientist »

I don't think you can convince him in taking a AMD processor (although they are better with gaming)
Athlon 64 3200+ @ 2300MHZ =3650+ Stock Voltage
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Post by killswitch83 »

unfortunately, you might be correct. the thing about it though is that Intel runs hotter even with a relatively cool ambient temp. I've never had a problem with temps on an AMD running with a relatively warm ambient. And to boot they work well with gaming, especially dual-core (serious sam 2, quake 4, and a couple others use both cores and is fairly CPU intensive!). OH well, to each their own.
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Re: Building a New Computer...need opinions

Post by nForcer227 »

gvblake22 wrote: But from a multi-use/multitasking point of view, dual core processors can offer you much more than any single core processor can. So just decide how much you are willing to spend and what types of uses you will primarily be concerned with.
Yea the more programs i can run at one point the better...like maya, and photoshop, zbrush and lot more really bog my computer down...so the dual core will help alot

I failed to mention that im trying to keep it around 1500 as my budget...but I always can spend a lil extra...

Thanks for all the info, It was more than i was asking for.. Thanks !
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Post by nForcer227 »

Kerii wrote:And... I don't know how you handle all your work, but whenever I do graphics/video work, I always end up with a TON of junk material and extras that I may or may not need, and 120GB just seems a bit too small. I'd recommend at least a 250GB just to be safe. It's not like they're that expensive anymore. :mrgreen:
:D I know...I got a 80gb that will hold all my junk ...including my 40gb pocket HD that i take between school and such...I also store old material of mine on CD-Rs...but with a DVD-RW i can store stuff on DVDs ... Storage is never a problem for me...:D I find space lol, Thanks tho...appreciate the input
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Post by nForcer227 »

killswitch83 wrote:
ok, here's my take, and it's around the same price as the current config you want, but it's AMD with some great components:

  • CPU: AMD X2 3800+ (OC it to around 2.4, 2.5 if you're feeling ballzy)
    Mobo: DFI Ultra Infinity
    Video Card: XFX 7800GTX PCI-Express
    Sound: use onboard, as it's pretty good
    RAM: 1 GB * 2 OCZ PC4800 EL Platinum (great timings, good OC in my opinion, at least from what I've been reading up about them)
    HDD: Hitachi Deskstar 250GB (good reliable drive)
    DVD-RW: Sony 16x Dual-Layer
    CPU Cooler: Thermalright SI-120 or XP-90C (would go for the XP-90C just due to the fact it's all copper and is very likely to conduct heat more efficiently for its size, though a SI-120 would be comparable due to the size of the heatsink and CFM rating of the fan)
Impressive machine, I am not completely dogging out AMD...I have had amd for YEARS...but whenever my computer will over heat, programs will crash left and right and itll get really bogged down...So i wanted to try intel out...but if the new AMD's are running cooler...i may want AMD than :D
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Post by Kerii »

nForcer227 wrote:Impressive machine, I am not completely dogging out AMD...I have had amd for YEARS...but whenever my computer will over heat, programs will crash left and right and itll get really bogged down...So i wanted to try intel out...but if the new AMD's are running cooler...i may want AMD than :D
Overall, the tables have turned on Intel in the last few years in terms of heat issues. Especially with Prescotts and their derivatives (Smithfield/dual core). If you're getting a new case, then it likely won't be an issue if it has good cooling, the matter would then turn to whether or not you mind the noise.

The Pentium M however has made a lot of headlines in the enthusiast and notebook markets, possessing almost no weakness in any areas (neck and neck with A64 FXs in games and P4s in graphics/video), and running incredibly cool and on very low power. Unfortunately, there's no HT or dual core Pentium Ms yet.

If you don't mind a little wait though, the vastly improved 65nm CedarMill and Conroe cores from Intel are coming in next year. Of course, they'll be very expensive at first, and by then A64 X2s will have dropped even further in prices. :mrgreen:
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Post by nForcer227 »

Kerii wrote:...by then A64 X2s will have dropped even further in prices. :mrgreen:
by what i am hearing about AMD makes me happier than ever, since i had my 3 past computers AMD...I just may look into an AMD system instead...


How is the video/high-end rendering for the A64 X2s....or even any other AMD ... Can someone give me a link for benchmark comparrison?

Thank you kerii, u been a big help as well as the others
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Post by killswitch83 »

I would definitely wait on the 65nm, as I've heard they are currently still trying to get the process down (I think they're having either voltage or temp issues with the new chip, or both, can't remember). Hey Nate, care to jump in on this, or are you still NDA?

to nforcer: they definitely improved the temps on the AMD 64 chips. Just ask capper, now I know he has phase-change, but he was running a X2 4800+(?) on an Exos2 W/C system, and got impressive temps at an awesome OC. They have vastly improved the temps with the 90nm process as opposed to the 13 micron they used to have with the XP chips. Plus they're cheaper as well, always an excellent thing :mrgreen:

tis all up to you man, but that's just my take on it......I won't touch a Pentium chip right now unless it were either given to me or if it were a Pentium M so I could build a lappie, because that's the one line they have it dead-on with.
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Post by Dragon_Cooler »

so i guess let me ask this question.....( im a little confused now from what i once read)

Games do now take advantage of dual core? i.e. Q4, BF2, COD2 Etc. Or is it still a waist of money. Is there better price/performance diferance between a dual core and say FX-57?
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Post by killswitch83 »

man, I really don't know what to say concerning the FX chip, as I've not read anything much on the chip, but I've read that Quake 4 and Serious Sam 2 takes advantage of both cores......wish I would have bookmarked that page, could have shown you. The only thing I really know about the FX chip is that it's a good deal overpriced (one of the upper-level FX single core processors has a San Diego core with 1 MB cache, while you have the AMD 64 3700+ San Diego with 1 MB cache at a much lower price; the only difference I can think there would be is that maybe the FX is like the Opteron chips in that they're hand-picked, cream of the crop cores, not to mention an unlocked multi as opposed to the 10x multi the 64 likes).....In a word, you have a great deal of overclocking potential with the FX chips at a much higher price, where you can have something similar (AMD 64) with good OC'ing ability without breaking your wallet. I would still prefer dual-core just due to the fact that you can do much more with it....for example, you can run a really good A-V like Kaspersky and game without any lag. It's all in personal preference on that one IMHO.
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Post by Kerii »

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... mes_6.html

I think the results speak for themselves. :P

An X2 4800+ outperforms (or is neck and neck with) the FX-57 in most modern games for less than the price of an FX-55! And you get the benefits for multitasking as well future proofing for upcoming games like UT2007.

Some games still don't have support for multiple threads apparently:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... mes_3.html

Though, not like the FPS difference matters that much when you're getting 400+, lol.
Last edited by Kerii on Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by killswitch83 »

Ahhhh thanks Kerii, that was just the article I was looking for as a matter of fact!! You the man, lol :rolleyes:

but yeah, it does kick ass, shows what 1MB X 2 cache with great OC'ing ability can do for ya.
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Post by nForcer227 »

Kerii wrote:http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... mes_6.html

I think the results speak for themselves. :P

An X2 4800+ outperforms (or is neck and neck with) the FX-57 in most modern games for less than the price of an FX-55! And you get the benefits for multitasking as well future proofing for upcoming games like UT2007.

Some games still don't have support for multiple threads apparently:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... mes_3.html

Though, not like the FPS difference matters that much when you're getting 400+, lol.
those stats kick ass...well its settle than, i am gonna stick with AMD ;) Instead of makin the switch to Intel :D

Ok so the AMD 64 4200+ X2 is one im looking at..it has the dual core, but how is the AMD64 3700? The amd64 3700 is more in my pricerange...but the 4200 x2 isnt to bad either...?

Should i spend the extra cash for the 4200 X2? or if im lookin for budget the 3700 will deliver a good amount of what im lookin for?

What kinda chipsets are good for these 64bit AMDs? Nforce or what? I like the ASUS boards but im sure u guys will tell me theres better out there :D
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Post by killswitch83 »

actually, I think you meant the 3800+, not 3700+....anyways, all the 4200 is, is a 3800+ with a slightly higher clock.....you can easily get a 200 MHz OC on a 3800+ chip for less than you would pay for a 4200+.....in a word, get the 3800+, it's a great chip IMO


As far as the chipset is concerned, the DFI mobo's (at least the Infinity and UT lines) have one of two chipsets, depending on whether you have the Ultra or SLI in either of those sets: NForce4 Ultra or NForce4 SLI. It's a great chipset, and I can tell you're an Nvidia fan (aww I wonder what gave it away, lol :rolleyes: ). Are you going to be doing much gaming? If so, and you want decent OC's with a fairly deep BIOS for the price, I would go with the Infinity Ultra (if you don't want SLI), or the Infinity SLI (if you do want it). This is just one man's opinion, and I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but on a budget you learn where the deals are, lol
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