replace this psu w/ 1 of these for my...

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kgs
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replace this psu w/ 1 of these for my...

Post by kgs »

I have already bought (NEW additions in my soon to be NEWish pc):
ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe mobo
2.6C cpu retail box w/ heatsink & fan

I am very soon to buy (NEW additions in my soon to be NEWish pc):
OCZ EL4200 512MB (2x256MB) RAM Dual Channel Kit
2 WD Raptor SATA 36.7GB 10,000rpm HDDs (for RAID 0 performance only)

I already had (OLDER components soon to be integrated into my soon to be NEWish pc):
Pioneer DVD-116 (read only); but may soon get a 'real' +/- DVD/CD/R/RW full utility unit soon (e.g. Plextor): (for rare usage)
IBM Deskstar 30GB 7200 rpm Ultra ATA-100 HDD (for long term file storage only)
ATI Radeon 64MB DDR VIVO AGP4X
Sound Blaster Live5.1 pci
USR 2976 V.90 full duplex modem pci
Pana std. floppy
(3) Vantec Stealth 80mm case fans (Front- Intake, Rear- Exhaust, Side Blowhole- Intake)
Black split loom for all power lines; 1/2" & 3/8"
Red round single cables for all (5) IDE/ATAPI/floppy/SATA data cables
externally powered sound (soon to be)
Lemark USB 5150 MFD (rare usage)
MP3 Walkman (common, but standalone usage)
Powmax LP-8800C 350W psu
basic 4+2 medium quality std. beige ATX case (likeable - esp. for modability)


I intend to have at least a fighting chance of achieving the overclocking figures published at anandtech and legitreviews for the ASUS mobo/OCZ RAM /2.6C cpu (quite often tested instead with a 2.4C) combo. I bought these products specifically for their capabilities, but I am totally new to Overclocking, so I'm not sure if I'll be always running at max levels. I understand it is possible the achieve 260-280FSB=say 3.5 GHz from a 2.6C, using these products. Don't know about power or heat yet!

I only putter around the internet and newsgroups, and I'll actualy need to obtain some serious new game(s). I am not sure of the level of cooling and power I'll need. In the case of the psu this means both (power and cooling req'd).

Due to another psus failure, about a year ago, I bought a Powmax LP-8800C 350W psu to use in my current 1.0GHz capable coppermine ASUS CUSL2-C PIII mobo. It is capable of all the connections on my new P4 mobo, but it may be too cheesy!? In my limited understanding I assume that the major reason is its tendancy for power fluctuations which are un-regulated in the psu, because I also assume it is a passive (not active) PFC unit. Do I need to get rid of it? Might it do the job, or is it a mistake to attempt it with these products? I have already yanked and replaced its internal 2-wire 80mm fan with one Stealth 80mm fan wired directly to the PWR_FAN 3-pin on my mobo.

Any opinions on the psu question would be appreciated.

I assume any would be good, but do I have the right power output req'd. Is 300W enough power for this setup, and my intended usage? (Any higher and the price rises. My system will not need any more components than listed, and I don't know if predicting the future of psu requirements is possible?)

Will any of these psu options have sufficient integral cooling for this setup, and my intended usage? (I like the Zalman (option#1) because it has only one fan, and I like the idea of quiet, if that is indeed the case).


my current psu(Powmax LP8800-C 350W) is rated here,
http://www.powmax.com/8800C.htm

option 1
(ZM300A-APF 300W Quiet Power Supply - Zalman)
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/Merchan ... y_Code=400

option 2
(Enermax EG301P-VE FM 300 Watt *2 Fan* ATX PSU)
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/Merchan ... y_Code=400

option 3
(Antec 330W True Power PSU)
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/Merchan ... y_Code=400
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Post by Illuminati »

I'll make sure Nate replies to ya, because he's had a bit more experience on PSU's.

But I would not go any less than 360-400W for your system. Overclocking it really does consume a lot of power.
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Post by Apoptosis »

KGS,

#1 I belive 300W is not enough juice for your needs.

I've recently been checking out PSU's and have been seeing a ton of PSU's with UNSTABLE 12V rails! I've been running water cooling on our Intel Prescott test system(The Future is had by some already!) and have noticed that the 12V rail on many power supplies is dropping below 11V!

For example the Thermaltake PurePower 480W Power Supply is one we have often used around here and under extreme loads it drops down to 10.8V on the 12V rail! It turns out the 12V Rail on this unit is rated at 18A. Since this power supply can't handle the stress of our water cooler and extreme overclock (which you will soon see) we had to change power supplies! I first went to the Antec TruePower 430W Power Supply and the system never drops below 11.8V under extreme load! Although the Antec 430W sounds like it should be less powerfull than the Thermaltake 480W it's really not in our case. This is because the 12V rail is rated at 20A, which will offer more stability.

It should be noted that the 3.3 and 5 Volt rails are also important, but from what I have seen from overclocking and adding additional power consuming drives you need 20A or more on the 12V rail. We are currently using the Antec TrueControl 550W PSU, which has a 12V rail with 24A that is by far the most stable PSU in house.

I'm starting to ramble so I'll finish this up by recommending the Antec TruePower 430W PSU.
For Pricing Check Here
As you can tell it's currently at $77 shipped at Newegg and having used it on the forth coming processors and current water coolers it'd be a safe buy for the near future.

Why buy something out of date? Hope this makes since!
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Post by arDAWG »

I agree w/ the 12V problem, having just gone thru 3 psu's to get to an acceptable level (for the 12V rail) w/ a Shuttle AN35N Ultra NF2 board. The Enermax 431, the Enhance 350 both were too low, IMHO (11.37ish @ times). I was using a generic QMax 350 for awhile which gave better results (11.7ish), but the 12V would still drop under 11.6V under load (Prime95, SuperPI, etc). I finally broke out the TTGI 520w (which has the 5V/12V adjustment pot and the 12V problem went away. I deciced to crank it abit w/ the potentiometer (it's @ 12.15/ 5.40 now, according to Mobo Monitor, SpeedFan & SSSandra 04 Pro). As predicted, the system (an 1800V TBred oc'ed to 2.3ghz--air cooling) became much more stable. The TTGI/ Superflower psu is a great bargain, IMHO. Check it out here:http://www.directron.com/tt500ss.html
I've been quite pleased w/ the 2 that I have. ;)
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Post by Apoptosis »

The Enermax 431, the Enhance 350 both were too low, IMHO (11.37ish @ times).
What were those rails rated to handle in A's? Got the laying around by any chance? I'm interested in seeing if they are 18A or lower on the 12v rail.
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Post by kgs »

Due to your advise I read a lot of articles on the True Blue 480, which is a True Power with blue LEDS inside that shine down and back. Otherwise 430 is prob good for me.

Below is a link to yet another ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe mobo,
2.4C cpu (I just bought a 2.6C), and OCZ EL4200 512MB (2x256MB) RAM Dual Channel Kit review. In it they talk about a limiting factor to overclocking being the VDIMM settings, something about 3.00V, rather than the 2.8 or 2.85 or something. Is this a specific reference to something a mobo only can achieve i.e. non-3.3V, 5V, 12V for certain components? Mind you they also say to find the lowest V to avoid heat and extend life.

http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getart ... rticID=134

My question is, all the True Powers are supposed to have =/-3% automatic control (e.g.=.36V at 12V). I assume this to achieve as close to 3.3, 5, and 12V possible, as the exact amount close to these levels may not be exactly known. But the True Control550 has another manual over-ride control. What does this achieve?
Closer to the exact voltages of 3.3, 5, and 12?
Allowing greater control above or below these voltages?
Or is it current(A) at, above or below these voltages?

What would be the benefits for me?
Is it even possible to know/predict what I could do with the control?
Would just about anyone be able to benefit with the variable knob setting if they had one?

I know it has a fan speed controller too.
I'm running late 8:02am. I'll be back with more on the fan speed controller/# of fans controllerd, (3 Stealth 80mm), monitor rpm Q's.
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Post by Apoptosis »

But the True Control550 has another manual over-ride control. What does this achieve?
Closer to the exact voltages of 3.3, 5, and 12?
Allowing greater control above or below these voltages?
Or is it current(A) at, above or below these voltages?
The True Control allows you to "dial-in" your power supply. I have the True Control and I am able to use a voltmeter and adjust my rails underload to be 12V or higher.

For example lets pretend at idle my 12V rail is 12.05, but when I stress my system it drops to 11.88. By using the True Control I am able to compensate for the power drop by increasing the 12V rail. When you are done you will have voltage rails that are "dialed in"(12.00V) under full load. Die hard overclockers wanting the most will be able to get the extra MHz out of their CPU this way. For example I got 100MHz further with the TrueControl than I did with my other PSU that had unstable rails.
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Post by arDAWG »

Apoptosis wrote:
The Enermax 431, the Enhance 350 both were too low, IMHO (11.37ish @ times).
What were those rails rated to handle in A's? Got the laying around by any chance? I'm interested in seeing if they are 18A or lower on the 12v rail.
You're quite correct---the 12V rail on the Enermax, Enhance & QMax are all 15A, while the TTGI is 18A. The Enermax 431W is a rather old model, as it seems the 431 offers 35A on the 12V now. I know I can solder a variable resistor on r82 w/ the Enermax, but it's somewhat hard to get to. W/ the TTGI being only ~$70 it was easier to upgrade (and probably a wise decision as well). I've learned it's not wise to skimp on the psu...the hard way...lol. I've read a lotta good stuff about the Antec 550 True Control, w/ the only neg. being that the adjustment pots allow only +/- 5% & then the OV protection kicks in. This was a point of contention for those wanting to overvolt their 3.3V rail to 4V+ (note, I've seen some daredevils even rewire their 3.3V to 5V to achieve this boost). Anywayz, since this is in regards to a P4 system, my advice would be to go w/ Enermax. Conventional wisdom suggests that the 5V rail is more important for AMD builds & the 12V is key for P4's (since they're supposedly "12V hungry"). I would not go w/ anything under 400W for any of my systems. The 350 watters were just spares I was using to test several new boards that I purchased. It's also worth noting that the aforementioned Shuttle board was the 1st I have used to utilize the 4 pin 12V aux connector. Idk if this has anything to do w/ my low 12V problem or is simply coincidence. I do know that w/ the TTGI 520W this setup is much more stable... :D
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Post by Apoptosis »

ote, I've seen some daredevils even rewire their 3.3V to 5V to achieve this boost
That is insane! I'll stick to my simple old school stuff....lol
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Post by arDAWG »

I agree for the most part. I did have my bro solder a 1K pot on the VReg of my Epox 8rda+ so I could turn up the chipset voltage (VDD). I replaced the stock N. Bridge cooler w/ a Dynatron cpu cooler (Alum./Copper) and a delta 6cm screamer. I've grown tired of noise though, so I'm shedding all the obnoxious fans (deltas, tornados, etc) and moving to watercooling. As far as the 3.3V goes, I tried to crank mine w/ an Antec 400W which had the 5/12V pot and the 3.3V pot. I got it to 3.6V b4 the OV protex kicked in. My system was actually less stable and I couldn't OC the ti4200 I was using, @ the time, nearly as much (w/out articfacts in 3dMark2001se). Thus, the 3.3V dealy was a bust for me. ;)

Note: Only certain psu's have the internal pots---the ones I know for sure are the Antec 400W and the TTGI 520W. On these the 5 & 12V are on the same circuit, so if you raise one the other goes up as well. The Antec True Control and the PC Power and Cooling offer separate 5 & 12V adjustments, as well as 3.3V. The Sparkle 400W supposedly has the pots as well. It's hard to remove the cover and salvage the warranty void stickers and it can also be dangerous. The capacitors can hold enuff juice to stop one's heart for up to 3 weeks after the psu has been unplugged. The safest techinque is to unplug the psu and depress the on/off about 10-15 times to drain the caps (I've seen fans spin up for a second or 2 after unplugging the psu to confirm the fact that the caps hold juice). If you do this and avoid those big c battery size caps, esp. w/ screwdrivers, then you're good to go.
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Post by kgs »

ok searching for the best psu (with the execption of the True Control options) means finding one that accurately supplies a constant 3.3V, 5V, and 12V, and can also supply that at a high enough Amperage (current) to meet power demands (W=VA). The True Power series says it supplies constant V @=/- 3% (I think it syas that). It has feedback to monitor the V output (or the A output, or the W output)

So the benefit of having the True Control, (besides the fact it has a very high 550W) is to allow you to manually adjust to the exact figures (by applying information gathered with a tester, or by MBM5, or whatever)?

So it the quality of the feedback monitor, or the fact that +/-3% really isn't that close (even if it is best avail), or both that is the advantage. In other words, if you want better, you have to do it yourself.

And the goal is or is not to achieve closer to the exact values of 3.3V, 5V, and 12V?

At what point is having the exact V better than having 7000W? And is exact values of 3.3V, 5V, and 12V what you want?
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Post by arDAWG »

Personally, I go for overvolting vs. undervolting...always better in my experience...just not too much... ;) The True Control is a decent choice for an Intel system w/ 24A on the 12V...& the adjustable pots help a lot to make up for low rails (3.3, 5 & 12V). Speaking seriously, I always go some over on the 5V on my AMD systems. Why? Run any intensive load producing app (such as Prime95) and watch the Mobo Monitor or Speedfan voltages---the 5V will drop. Also, as you increase the VCore to overclock you will lose voltage on the 5V rail...this is not speculation, but reality w/ an AMD XP based system. I have much less experience w/ Intel, but those I've spoken to @ VRForums, eXtreme, [H]ardForums, etc tell me that the 12V rail is crucial w/ P4 systems. Some of these ppl are VapoChill/ Prommie running-hardcore oc'ers, I might add. Furthermore, from what I've been told, most hardcore P4 oc'ers go w/ Enermax for their strong 12V rails. I couldn't see why this was so, seeing that my Enermax 431W offers 15A on the 12V... However, after eyeing the new 431W @ Newegg, IC that Enermax offers 35a on the 12V rail. This is more than my TTGI 520's 12V (18A). My TTGI offers a whopping 52A on the 5V though...so it's AMD friendly. Antec is kinda middle of the road, but the general perception is Antec for AMD, Enermax for Intel. That's what I've been told time and time again...I can't confirm the results for the dark side, but I do know TTGI and Antec are great for AMD... :D
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Post by Apoptosis »

arDAWG wrote:Personally, I go for overvolting vs. undervolting...always better in my experience...just not too much...
Second that ;)
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