I totally agree with you, as usual.
If I were going to build an O/C setup. i would do what I did last night and buy a Barton 2500+ mobile and plug it into an ASUS or ABIT board, I have seen those things at 2.8 on air with Sandra benchies over 10K. Pretty insanre for $80. For what I spent on a 2.8 E Prescott, I just bought a great O/C cPU and MOBO combined.
As far as the trade off, he has water, and all things being equal, with water i'd do the Pressie, I have also read that the 3.0 and 3.2 O/C about the same. If you had to you could do the 3200 RAM and run it at 5:4, but I'd still try the PR at 3.0, get some PC 4200 or 4400 and let'r rip.
IC7 Max-3
Macpower / Home / Products / Computer Peripherals / Digital Doc / Digital Doc 5
http://www.macpower.com.tw/products/per ... d/tc_beige
Bought one of these last night. Wanted to try something different than the Hardcano 12, which really didn't impress me.
http://www.macpower.com.tw/products/per ... d/tc_beige
Bought one of these last night. Wanted to try something different than the Hardcano 12, which really didn't impress me.
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infinitevalence
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Ok. Now that Prescott has been decided on, what should I set as a goal for overclocking? How far do you think I can O/C it?
Also, with overclocking, does actual speed increase at a 1:1 ratio with um, virtual speed? Ex: 3.0 At stock with 7500 PCMark02 score and 3.0 @ 4.0 with 10,000 (both 33% more than stock)? And would that 3.0 overclocked be the same as a 4GHz Northwood if they made such a thing (Or a 2.4 @ 3.2 being exactly the same speed as a 3.2 at stock)?
EDIT: Remember I will be getting mofset heatsinks, Southbridge heatsinks, and assume I get 1Gb of Corsair PC3200.
Also, with overclocking, does actual speed increase at a 1:1 ratio with um, virtual speed? Ex: 3.0 At stock with 7500 PCMark02 score and 3.0 @ 4.0 with 10,000 (both 33% more than stock)? And would that 3.0 overclocked be the same as a 4GHz Northwood if they made such a thing (Or a 2.4 @ 3.2 being exactly the same speed as a 3.2 at stock)?
EDIT: Remember I will be getting mofset heatsinks, Southbridge heatsinks, and assume I get 1Gb of Corsair PC3200.
As Infinite said earlier, every chip is different. But like we both said, you are going to need at least PC 4000, if not 4400. I'm using Corsair XMS Pro 4000, and at 250 FSB I'm maxxed out because of voltage issues, and if i'm using a 3.2 and just make 4.0GHz, then a 3. and 3200 ain't going to get you there.
Alrighty. I don't want to step on Infinites toes, because this is his specialty, but here is an idea of how things work.
RAM specs
PC2100 runs at 266MHz
PC2700 runs at 333MHz
PC3200 runs at 400MHz
PC3500 runs at 434 MHz
PC3700 runs at 466MHz
PC4000 runs at 500MHz
PC4200 runs at 533MHz
PC4400 runs at 550MHz
+You can overclock memory, but these are the specs that it has been tested to and guaranteed to run at, anything over what RAM is listed as is a bonus.
Intel FSB is Quad pumped, which means 400, 533, and 800 are actually 100, 133, and 200. Prescott has an 800 FSB, which means the minimum RAM you want to run 1:1 with it is 3200.
The Processor speed is figured by multiplying the FSB by the chips multiplier (Intels are locked). So for reference a 2.8 has a multiplier of 14, a 3.0 is 15, a 3.2 is 16, and a 3.4 is 17..
Since Intel has locked their multiplier the only way to actually O/C your system is to increase the FSB. (On your 3.0 you multiply by 200, because it is quad pumped, so a multiplier of 15x200=3000MHz or 3.0GHz).
Using that as a reference you would work your way up from there, an FSB of 225 on a 3.0 gives you aCPU speed of 3375MHz or 3.37GHz, an FSB of 250 gives you a CPU speed of 3750MHz, or 3.75Ghz.
Using this, along with the RAM guide, you can see that a RAM module at PC4000 (tested to a FSB of 250) would only be guaranteed to take you to 3.75Ghz, anything over that is a bonus..
So right there you know you are probably going to need more than PC4000 if you are using a 3.0 E. If PC4400 will scale to an FSB of 275, that means it is capable of running at 4,125GHz (theoretically, if your CPU is a 3.0, with a multiplier of 15...15 X 275= 4125MHz= 4.125Ghz.). I will also say the best you will see on a board without any mods and water cooling is 250 on the FSB, most of these guys you see with 275-300 FSB have to run phase change cooling and mods, the boards themselves just can't handle the heat or voltage
RAM specs
PC2100 runs at 266MHz
PC2700 runs at 333MHz
PC3200 runs at 400MHz
PC3500 runs at 434 MHz
PC3700 runs at 466MHz
PC4000 runs at 500MHz
PC4200 runs at 533MHz
PC4400 runs at 550MHz
+You can overclock memory, but these are the specs that it has been tested to and guaranteed to run at, anything over what RAM is listed as is a bonus.
Intel FSB is Quad pumped, which means 400, 533, and 800 are actually 100, 133, and 200. Prescott has an 800 FSB, which means the minimum RAM you want to run 1:1 with it is 3200.
The Processor speed is figured by multiplying the FSB by the chips multiplier (Intels are locked). So for reference a 2.8 has a multiplier of 14, a 3.0 is 15, a 3.2 is 16, and a 3.4 is 17..
Since Intel has locked their multiplier the only way to actually O/C your system is to increase the FSB. (On your 3.0 you multiply by 200, because it is quad pumped, so a multiplier of 15x200=3000MHz or 3.0GHz).
Using that as a reference you would work your way up from there, an FSB of 225 on a 3.0 gives you aCPU speed of 3375MHz or 3.37GHz, an FSB of 250 gives you a CPU speed of 3750MHz, or 3.75Ghz.
Using this, along with the RAM guide, you can see that a RAM module at PC4000 (tested to a FSB of 250) would only be guaranteed to take you to 3.75Ghz, anything over that is a bonus..
So right there you know you are probably going to need more than PC4000 if you are using a 3.0 E. If PC4400 will scale to an FSB of 275, that means it is capable of running at 4,125GHz (theoretically, if your CPU is a 3.0, with a multiplier of 15...15 X 275= 4125MHz= 4.125Ghz.). I will also say the best you will see on a board without any mods and water cooling is 250 on the FSB, most of these guys you see with 275-300 FSB have to run phase change cooling and mods, the boards themselves just can't handle the heat or voltage
Last edited by LVCapo on Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now we add from there. The 4400 RAM is guaranteed to hit an FSB of 275, anything past that is a bonus (there usually isn't a whole lot past the test speed on RAM). There is alot more to get into, like memory bandwidth, etc, but for simply O/C understanding, we don't need to get into that.
Both RAM and your CPU need juice to run. at rated speeds, and most pften a little higher, you can run the default voltage, I think the Pressie runs at 1.38 default, I can scale up to 3.6 on mine at default voltage, at 3.7 I need 1.43, at 4.0 It takes 1.54. This is what generates heat, another thing we won't go into depth on here, needless to say the higher you push it, the more extreme the cooling must be. All boards run fine at default values, but the higher you go, the more the v-core starts bouncing, which hinders stability, my ASUS mis tererible at that, my vcore would swing from 1.33 to 1.55, which when you are O/Ced isn't a great thing and leads to alot of crashes. There are alot of mods out there that stabilize the v-core, but my personal feeling is that these companies tthat cater to the O/Cer should fix these problems, and all boards have them, instead it is up to the enthusiast to mod his board...and void the warranty. The trouble with the Prescott CPU is that alot of boards say they are "Prescott Ready", which means they can handle the CPU at stock speeds, with good cooling, but the heat generated by these CPUs really stresses the system.....and it is a circuitry issue, so it can't be fixed by a BIOS patch. What alot of board makers have done is to limit what you can achieve with the Prescott by implementing BIOS fixes that take away voltage setting etc.(I think MSI did this, which is why I got rid of it). That being said, with the water cooling and the mosfet coolers, etc, you should be fine. My ASUS and ABIT boards have had no problems with the Prescott, I ran my ASUS at 3.9, and my ABIT at 4.0 with W/C and good ventilation, very stable.
Now to the RAM. Most high end RAM runs at 2.75-2.8 sstock, which means that at its rated speed, that voltage will work fine, but to O/C your RAM you need to increase the voltage. The drawback of the ASUS board is the max voltage of 2.85, which for high end RAM is barely stock voltage, so you'd have to mod it for real O/Cing, the problem on the ABIT boards is the voltage over 2.9 tends to fluctuate between 2.9 and 3.1. Now I have read that most voltage has been tested to the 3.4-3.8 range, but going there voids your warranty. The real problem with the ABIT boards is the Vtt, which is supposed to be half of the RAM voltage or Vcc, from 2.6 to 2.9 it is fine, but over that and the ABIT boards drop badly. At 3.0 my RAM was unstable because the Vtt was 1.29, which is not half of the Vcc.
Which is why I've been trying to find the new OCZ RAM diagnostic tool, which is supposed to fix this issue without any mods. There are tons of proven mods out there for all these issues, but in my opinion, it is on the board makers, if you do one of these mods, your warranty is voided, if something goes wrong, you just wasted a good board.. That being said, there are alot of guys out there who will do this mod for you, some charge a few bucks, some will do it for free. You can probably also print out the mods anfd take your board to someone who does electronics repair or soldering, it might cost you a little, but you know they are pros and do it right.
Both RAM and your CPU need juice to run. at rated speeds, and most pften a little higher, you can run the default voltage, I think the Pressie runs at 1.38 default, I can scale up to 3.6 on mine at default voltage, at 3.7 I need 1.43, at 4.0 It takes 1.54. This is what generates heat, another thing we won't go into depth on here, needless to say the higher you push it, the more extreme the cooling must be. All boards run fine at default values, but the higher you go, the more the v-core starts bouncing, which hinders stability, my ASUS mis tererible at that, my vcore would swing from 1.33 to 1.55, which when you are O/Ced isn't a great thing and leads to alot of crashes. There are alot of mods out there that stabilize the v-core, but my personal feeling is that these companies tthat cater to the O/Cer should fix these problems, and all boards have them, instead it is up to the enthusiast to mod his board...and void the warranty. The trouble with the Prescott CPU is that alot of boards say they are "Prescott Ready", which means they can handle the CPU at stock speeds, with good cooling, but the heat generated by these CPUs really stresses the system.....and it is a circuitry issue, so it can't be fixed by a BIOS patch. What alot of board makers have done is to limit what you can achieve with the Prescott by implementing BIOS fixes that take away voltage setting etc.(I think MSI did this, which is why I got rid of it). That being said, with the water cooling and the mosfet coolers, etc, you should be fine. My ASUS and ABIT boards have had no problems with the Prescott, I ran my ASUS at 3.9, and my ABIT at 4.0 with W/C and good ventilation, very stable.
Now to the RAM. Most high end RAM runs at 2.75-2.8 sstock, which means that at its rated speed, that voltage will work fine, but to O/C your RAM you need to increase the voltage. The drawback of the ASUS board is the max voltage of 2.85, which for high end RAM is barely stock voltage, so you'd have to mod it for real O/Cing, the problem on the ABIT boards is the voltage over 2.9 tends to fluctuate between 2.9 and 3.1. Now I have read that most voltage has been tested to the 3.4-3.8 range, but going there voids your warranty. The real problem with the ABIT boards is the Vtt, which is supposed to be half of the RAM voltage or Vcc, from 2.6 to 2.9 it is fine, but over that and the ABIT boards drop badly. At 3.0 my RAM was unstable because the Vtt was 1.29, which is not half of the Vcc.
Which is why I've been trying to find the new OCZ RAM diagnostic tool, which is supposed to fix this issue without any mods. There are tons of proven mods out there for all these issues, but in my opinion, it is on the board makers, if you do one of these mods, your warranty is voided, if something goes wrong, you just wasted a good board.. That being said, there are alot of guys out there who will do this mod for you, some charge a few bucks, some will do it for free. You can probably also print out the mods anfd take your board to someone who does electronics repair or soldering, it might cost you a little, but you know they are pros and do it right.
you talked about the RAM settings of 1:1, 5:4, and 3:2. What that basically does is run the RAM slower than the Processor, like you showed, but what is the sense of slowing down your RAM? To me that never made much sense, slowing down the overall performance of your system to gain a good benchmark in one area. Underclocking your RAM also makes your bandwidth smaller, which will bottleneck your systems performance. If you want a real O/C, one that really makes your system smoke, then you need to run 1:1
There was a lot of good information in there capper, but since I've tried overclocking my current processor without success, I've already talked to people on forums and learned all about how multipliers work. I've also calculated out all the multipliers for what different processors have for both Intels and AMDs, in the form of a chart which I might post on my site.
I also know about the RAM speeds and how they are multiplied, that's why I said I could change the ratio. Almost all PC3200 I've heard of can overclock to 420MHz, with the good brands like Corsair o/c'ing from 430-440MHz. Changing my ratio to 5:4 and overclocking a 3.0 to 4.0 (267FSB) puts the memory at a perfect 427MHz, which even my Apacer memory can get to (don't know how good Apacer is supposed to be). Now yes, I understand that changing the ratio to 5:4 will lessen my o/c overall. But between PC3200 and PC4000 or PC4400 is like $100. I'm the type of guy that does things right the first time, but right now I just can't spend that much money. I could get 512Mb of PC4400, but I want to stay with a gig.
Once my new review site grows a little bit, I'm sure it won't be too hard to snag some PC4000 or 4400 . Seems like every site has been giving away Corsair XMS memory.
With the 400MHz RAM running around 430, I shouldn't have to change the voltage that much. I've had my memory close to that by changing the voltage just a little bit. I should be able to keep it stable.
Now I will be getting the mofset heatsinks, and other than that there is nothing to do until the major overclocks right? Is there a diagram on the net that shows what to solder and stuff, or do you just have to know what's going on?
I also know about the RAM speeds and how they are multiplied, that's why I said I could change the ratio. Almost all PC3200 I've heard of can overclock to 420MHz, with the good brands like Corsair o/c'ing from 430-440MHz. Changing my ratio to 5:4 and overclocking a 3.0 to 4.0 (267FSB) puts the memory at a perfect 427MHz, which even my Apacer memory can get to (don't know how good Apacer is supposed to be). Now yes, I understand that changing the ratio to 5:4 will lessen my o/c overall. But between PC3200 and PC4000 or PC4400 is like $100. I'm the type of guy that does things right the first time, but right now I just can't spend that much money. I could get 512Mb of PC4400, but I want to stay with a gig.
Once my new review site grows a little bit, I'm sure it won't be too hard to snag some PC4000 or 4400 . Seems like every site has been giving away Corsair XMS memory.
With the 400MHz RAM running around 430, I shouldn't have to change the voltage that much. I've had my memory close to that by changing the voltage just a little bit. I should be able to keep it stable.
Now I will be getting the mofset heatsinks, and other than that there is nothing to do until the major overclocks right? Is there a diagram on the net that shows what to solder and stuff, or do you just have to know what's going on?
http://www.thelab.gr/reviews/ic7mods_en1.php
Everything I have read says this guy is the God of motherboards. i've talked to him and he is a very nice person on top of that. You could contact him if you have any questions, Personally I don't feel secure enough in my soldering skills to knock this out, you may, but i'd take it to an electronics repair shop along with a printed up copy of this guide and turn them loose on it.
As to the rest, I think you are "robbing Peter to pay Paul" by O/Cing to 4GHz and dropping the divider to 5:4, unless the only goal is to get 4GHZ, or for CPU benchmarks, other than that I tend to think your performance would be less than if you went with a straight 1:1 at your systems max, even if that was 3.71 to 3.84, which is what I figure totally stable.
Everything I have read says this guy is the God of motherboards. i've talked to him and he is a very nice person on top of that. You could contact him if you have any questions, Personally I don't feel secure enough in my soldering skills to knock this out, you may, but i'd take it to an electronics repair shop along with a printed up copy of this guide and turn them loose on it.
As to the rest, I think you are "robbing Peter to pay Paul" by O/Cing to 4GHz and dropping the divider to 5:4, unless the only goal is to get 4GHZ, or for CPU benchmarks, other than that I tend to think your performance would be less than if you went with a straight 1:1 at your systems max, even if that was 3.71 to 3.84, which is what I figure totally stable.
Ah, but you only give Paul half of what you rob from Peter :idea:capper5016 wrote: As to the rest, I think you are "robbing Peter to pay Paul" by O/Cing to 4GHz and dropping the divider to 5:4, unless the only goal is to get 4GHZ, or for CPU benchmarks, other than that I tend to think your performance would be less than if you went with a straight 1:1 at your systems max, even if that was 3.71 to 3.84, which is what I figure totally stable.
Anyway, I might just keep the memory I have now or just buy 1 stick of 512Mb DDR550. Either way I can still overclock the processor to the highest speed possible, drop it down and compare benchmarks and keep adjusting until I find what is best.