New future buil- TOPIC CHANGE! Tablet vs Laptop (see pg 2)

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New future buil- TOPIC CHANGE! Tablet vs Laptop (see pg 2)

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:17 am

Hey,
So my case /sucks/ (Antec Super Lanboy, too small to fit a GTX280 or an HD 4870 regular), my comp's pretty out of date (dual core Athlon 64 X2, S939), and since I might be getting a cash influx due to a car accident, I might be getting a new, rig, so this is the one I had thought up for after the HD 4870X2 is released.

Antec P180 Case - $135
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 - $330
Asus Rampage Formula - $290
Samsung F1 HD501IJ 500GB HDD - $90
OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 HPC Edition (2GB x 2) - $128
ATI HD 4870 X2 - $550
Corsair CMPSU-750TX 750W PSU - $130
Creative Xfi XtremeAudio - Transplant from current rig $0
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro - $27
Samsung SH-S203N Optical Drive - $27

Total:
$1700

Comments?

Multiple questions:
- How big of a case is the Antec P180? Is it big enough to fit a 10.5" graphics card?
- How overclockable is the Q6600? How exactly do you OC Intel processors these days? It seems complicated compared to OCing the old Athlon 64 X2s.
- Aren't they gonna run out of Q6600s? Am I gonna have to get the Q9300/Q9450 instead?
- What's the difference between/benefits of the Yorkfield compared to the Kentsfield processors?
- Are the Asus P5E Deluxe and Asus Rampage Formula worth considering in terms of overclocking?
Last edited by InsolenceAndHeresy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by ratNukit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:40 am

The Q6600 is easily overclocked, two of my friends got them. Only have to adjust the FSB frequency and easily get 3,0Ghz without anything else, provided you have a good cooler. The other got his to 3,6 Ghz with extra voltages.
The mobo supports Crossfire.
i believe you can get the frequency higher on the RAM with the higher FSB.

your chosen CPU cooler will hold the 3,0Ghz but don't know if it gets the heat down if you go even higher.


btw, with the prices you gave I only get 1416$ :mrgreen:
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by DaddyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:39 am

InsolenceAndHeresy wrote: Antec P180 Case - $135
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 - $209
Asus P5K Deluxe WiFi - $170
Samsung F1 HD501IJ 500GB HDD - $90
OCZ Reaper PC2-8500 HPC Edition (2GB x 2) - $128
ATI HD 4870 X2 - $500
Corsair CMPSU-750TX 750W PSU - $130
Creative Xfi XtremeAudio - Transplant from current rig $0
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro - $27
Samsung SH-S203N Optical Drive - $27
Probably the only two changes I would recommend (however, you know what they say about opinions :) )

- I would go with one of the P45s (P5Q series)
- I would go for an E8400. It's Wolfdale, it starts at 3G, is 30 buck cheaper, and will probably overclock better than the Q6600. I don't think quad cores buy you very much in gaming and by the time it does there will be faster, more efficient, and cheaper quads out there.

Either way it will be a nice upgrade for you...
InsolenceAndHeresy wrote:Multiple questions:
- How big of a case is the Antec P180? Is it big enough to fit a 10.5" graphics card?
- How overclockable is the Q6600? How exactly do you OC Intel processors these days? It seems complicated compared to OCing the old Athlon 64 X2s.
- Aren't they gonna run out of Q6600s? Am I gonna have to get the Q9300 instead?
- What's the difference between/benefits of the Yorkfield compared to the Kentsfield processors?
- Does the Asus P5K motherboard support Crossfire?
- Well, like with the Asus P5K, it says the supported FSBs are 1066 and 1333... so I can't push the overall FSB higher than that?
- The P180 might be a squeeze on a 10.5" card, but you can remove the upper drive cage to get it in. The problem is not so much the card itself as the placement of the PCI-E power connectors. Unless you are using a bunch of drives it should fit fine with the upper cage removed.

- Overclocking Intel CPUs is easy, a lot of the complications arise from extreme overclocking and balancing the RAM overclock. My E6850 goes quite nicely to 3.4G on the stock cooler with no voltage tweaking by just upping the FSB reference.

- I don't think the Q6600 will be discontinued tomorrow but it is getting a bit long in the tooth these days :)

- Yorkfield (and Wolfdale) are 45nm processors so they're generally a bit less power hungry and a bit cooler running (though I believe the later steppings of the Q6600 are 95 watts as well). Also you have 1333 FSB, SSE4 and some other stuff. Google it as there's a ton of comparison info out there.

- The P5K supports crossfire at 16x4 mode only, my reasoning for suggesting a P45 board is that if it is implemented on the board (some don't) they can do 8x8 Crossfire. (X38/X48 is also a good option but starts getting a little pricey, depends on your budget)

Good luck!
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:48 am

Thanks for the responses!

Would the Antec Nine Hundred be a better fit for a 10.5" card?

And I have no idea what the 16x4/8x8 means... (8 card Crossfire?)... I'll probably end up getting just one card to begin with, and at max, that's a big IF, add just one more card....

Is there any real significant driving reason to get an X38/X48 board over the P35/P45 boards? (if so, which are some good price overclocking ones and good price DDR3 overclocker's RAM?)

Another forum I post on told me the Q6600 is better for OCing than the Q9300... *shrug*

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by ratNukit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:02 am

16x4 means the first card in Crossfire has a PCIe 16 connection to the mobo ( more bandwidth) and the second gets a 4 connection ( a fourth of the 16 in bandwidth speed). At 8x8 both cards get 8 so they have the same data bandwidth to the mobo, the 4 could pull down the performance a bit.
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:18 am

wtf?

Even my old ATI Xpress 3200 has 16x16 Crossfire?

Well I guess I'm kinda screwed if I go HD 4870 Crossfire because I'm too lazy to wait for the HD 4870 X2?

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by ratNukit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:46 am

with that mobo . . . yes^^
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by Alathald » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:28 am

InsolenceAndHeresy wrote:I'm too lazy to wait
:shock: That's a whole new level of laziness, and I applaud you for it =D>

All kidding aside, I'd wait for the X2.
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by DaddyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:51 am

InsolenceAndHeresy wrote:Thanks for the responses!

Would the Antec Nine Hundred be a better fit for a 10.5" card?

And I have no idea what the 16x4/8x8 means... (8 card Crossfire?)... I'll probably end up getting just one card to begin with, and at max, that's a big IF, add just one more card....

Is there any real significant driving reason to get an X38/X48 board over the P35/P45 boards? (if so, which are some good price overclocking ones and good price DDR3 overclocker's RAM?)

Another forum I post on told me the Q6600 is better for OCing than the Q9300... *shrug*
Not sure about the 900, but as I said the 10.5" card "may" just fit in the P-180 but you may have to remove the upper cage in the P-180 to install the card and get the cabling ironed out then re-install the cage, I'll open up mine later and have a look.

ratNukit answered the confusion about the way I described Crossfire lane usage.

To be honest, with what we have on the table these days you would probably be fine with 8x8 within the lifetime of your new system (hence the P45 recommendation). That said, one of the advantages of X38/X48 would be true 16x16 Crossfire. Also note that several X38/X48 boards support DDR2 so spending the extra money on DDR3 isn't neccessary. The downside of X38/X48 is they are a bit costlier than their P35/P45 counterparts but it depends on budget. Asus and Gigabyte are usually my two preferred brands but I like Intel as well (but AFAIK Intel is ALL DDR3).

My statement about overclocking was directed at the E8400 (or dual cores in general) vs. quad cores, not quads vs. quads. In other words all else being equal a dual core usually overclocks better than a quad (of course there is a large amount of variance in overclocking so YMMV)

EDIT - WRT X38/X48, some to browse (there are many more!):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813136047 never used DFI but a good price for X48

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813131317

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813128336 (I like my GA-X38-DQ6)

I personally have had outstanding luck with Gigabyte and Intel, less so with ASUS, MSI, and Abit but, once again YMMV.
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:15 am

I'd really like a quad core, as when apps/games that do fully use Quad Core come out, it'd probably be less gimping to have an old quad core than an old dual core.

Well the Nine Hundred is smaller than the P180 lengthwise by 0.5" according to Newegg, so I suppose a 10.5" might not fit in the Nine Hundred?
(Other 10.5" cards = 3870X2, GTX 280)

X38s/X48s are both 8x8?

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by DaddyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:21 am

InsolenceAndHeresy wrote:I'd really like a quad core, as when apps/games that do fully use Quad Core come out, it'd probably be less gimping to have an old quad core than an old dual core.

Well the Nine Hundred is smaller than the P180 lengthwise by 0.5" according to Newegg, so I suppose a 10.5" might not fit in the Nine Hundred?
(Other 10.5" cards = 3870X2, GTX 280)

X38s/X48s are both 8x8?
Not bad reasoning on the quad (although the E8400 isn't quite "old" :) )

Don't look at outside measurements, it's all about the placement of the internal drive cages and components.

X38/X48 are both 16x16

EDIT - Did a little research and I don't think the GTX280 will easily fit in a P180 (although someone stated in a post that it fit in a P182). However, with the upper drive cage removed (it just slides out) it will fit just fine. Most people with this case use the lower cage for drive mounting anyway. So this would apply to the 4870X2 as well I would think.
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:04 pm

Mucho thanks again man... (and much more in advance)

I'm probably gonna be asking lots of questions till I get the rig so ... :D

It seems that the Antec Nine Hundred has its drive bays pretty much built in, and the fan bracket inside further lessens space, so D: - P180 for me I suppose?

The P182 is the exact same as the P180 except the color, right?
http://techgage.com/article/antec_p182_ ... id-tower/3
Because like here, the 8800GTX (which is also 10.5") doesn't fit with the upper drive cage, but it does seem to fit easily with room to spare once the middle bay is removed... Enough room with it removed for possible future 11"/11.5" cards as well?
Would the P180 be able to fit two 10.5" GPUs with the top drive cage gone?


Is the fan next to the PSU on the P180 removable? I heard it has issues with some large PSUs.

Also,
Are the Asus Rampage Formula and the P5E Deluxe worth considering in terms of overclocking?

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by DaddyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:00 pm

No problem, I'll be as helpful as I can (Lord knows I've had plenty myself :mrgreen: ) but don't listen to one persons opinions, there are many on this board who know a lot more about this than I do :)

The P182 is really just a response to some of the original P180 owners comments (like the rear fan controls that were alluded to) but yes they are pretty much the same.

I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure that two 10.5" cards would fit with the upper drive cage removed and yes, with it gone there is loads of room for longer cards. Note though that getting clean cable management in this case is a bit difficult and I would go with a modular PSU if possible.

Yes the lower case fan is removable but I wouldn't do that if avoidable as it provides cooling for the PSU and hard drives (the lower bay is isolated from the case airflow in the upper bay). My Corsair 620 fits quite well. I would just verify the measurements on your PSU of choice and make sure to get one that plays nice ;)

I'm hesitant to recommend a specific board for good overclocking if I've never used it before because:

1) I am not an extreme overclocker
2) I would be getting my info the same place you would, on the web...
3) Overclocking is not an exact science, so even if I said that my DQ6 and E6850 overclocked to 4ghz no problem and you rushed out and bought those two you might not have the same success.
4) I don't want the blame :axe:
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by hnzw_rui » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:12 pm

Don't have a P180, but I do have the P182. Supposedly, the P182 is an improved version of the P180 (e.g. improved cable management, etc). Yes, the fan between the power supply and the lower hard drive cage is removable. I use a Corsair 550VX (same size as the 620HX, I believe) and I wouldn't get a power supply any longer than it if you want to keep the middle fan. Not sure how much it actually helps with regards to airflow, though. If you remove the upper hard drive cage, you should be easily able to fit extra long video cards.

Also, I highly suggest you go with a modular power supply like the 620HX. Trust me, it would make for much easier cable management.
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:20 pm

Should I just get DDR2-1000 RAM rather than DDR2-1066 and save some money if I probably won't push past 500 and DDR2-1000s are guaranteed till 500?

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by DaddyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:44 pm

My DDR2-1000 works OK, albeit with relaxed timings. If I had it to do over again I would have spent the extra though, just for the headroom. The difference now is only $20 or so. That said, don't get a worse PSU to get the faster RAM! :)
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:24 pm

Well, if a set of DDR2-1000s give a certain voltage and timing in their specs, doesnt that mean I can run them at full 500 FSB at those given settings?

Anyone have any thoughts on the Asus Rampage Formula or the Maximus II formula?

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by DaIceMan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:43 pm

With the Antec Nine Hundred you can remove the rear fan housing on the center drive cage, giving you an extra inch or so. i can fit the 8800GTX in there with the fan in place. I don't have any pictures right now, but it's a tight fit.
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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by InsolenceAndHeresy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:57 pm

Pictures would be mucho appreciado, since the 8800GTX is also 10.5" :D

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Re: New future build, comments, OCable quadcore, many questions.

Post by DaIceMan » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:33 am

this is the only picture I have right now. I haven't been able to get around to the cable management, so it looks like crap in there.

As for fitting... you can see on the power end of the card, there is the black plastic fan housing. As I said, it can be removed and give you another inch or so, but I didn't have to remove it and actually ended up installing another fan in it.
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