2 Channel Stereo vs 5.1 for Gaming

[Skippman]

So lately I've been kicking around some thoughts about 2 channel stereo vs 5.1 surround sound for gaming. Like most of you I have a 5.1 set of computer speakers. Mine happen to be a midrange set from Creative Labs right after they bought out Cambridge Soundworks. They've worked pretty good for a number of years but lately I finally noticed something. I almost never seem to get any surround sound out of them. I know they're hooked up properly because the audio tests in Windows and my sound cards drivers all move the audio around properly. So this has lead me to wonder if 5.1 is really necessacary.

I've been wanting to upgrade to a set of monitors for some time now and have been looking at the stuff from Audio Engine and mAudio. Particularly the A2's from Audio Engine and the AV 40's from mAudio.

Do you think there is a serious gain to be had from using a 5.1 system or would 2 channel with EAX and A3D be enough?

Do you know anyone who makes a monitor quality 5.1 set? I've tried using an amp and 5.1 speaker set from Yamaha but found it bulky and not exactly the quality I was looking for.

[FZ1]

I was kinda thinking the same thing. The rear channels are mostly useless IMO, especially if they aren't positioned properly which can be tough to do depending the room configuration. I'd prefer a 3.1 system (which are pretty much non-existent) though because I do notice a big difference when running the system in 2.1 vs 5.1 - the center channel makes a big difference in movies for sure since that is primarily the dialogue channel.

[DragonFury]

Actually I play on a 7.1 channel sound set up, is there a difference between a 2.1 vs a 5.1 yes there is. most games are utilizing the rear channels of the 5.1 speaker set ups. this adds a bit more realism to our games, also it allows us gamers to determine if things are going on behind us, to our right and left, and as well as in front of us (and any combination). the key thing is to have a sound card capable of doing this (most are nowadays). If you are using a X-FI system you have to use a Xpand surround, for both movies and games, in order for it to work properly, the surround setting treats all speakers as if they are in stereo mode. listening to music you want surround and not in Xpand mode in the X-FI control panal. Realtek sound cards (onboard) i have no clue what the settings are because i dont use it.

[Skippman]

I have a very good 7.1 setup in my home theater and agree that console games do an excellent job of dealing with positional audio, PS3 titles in particular. However on the PC I almost never hear my rear speakers engage. Like FZ1 I think a 3.1 setup would be great but no such option exists. Also I don't much care for the wires necessary for rear speakers.

Dragon, what 7.1 setup are you using?

[Sttm]

I am using a asus xonar soundcard with dolby digital live and outputting the audio via optical connection to a yamaha receiver which I have hooked up to a 5.1 setup of Cambridge Soundworks speakers.
But awhile back I got a set of Sennheiser HD 555 headphones and since then I have barely ever used my speakers. The receiver has Dolby Headphone so it downmixes the dolby digital output and creates a really nice spacial quality to it using the headphones. The way that sound wraps around me and the clarity of every little thing going on that I can make out when using the headphones makes it more immersive to me then when I'm using the 5.1 setup. So I am enjoying a stereo headphone setup over a 5.1 setup thanks to some great dolby headphone downmixing.

[Skippman]

I was about to ask what you needed a $200 sound card for if you're letting the speakers decode the sound but the headphones explains that. I'd considered the headphone route but I wear a headset 9 hours a day as is and don't want to on my time off.

How do you like your Xonar BTW?

[DragonFury]

Dragon, what 7.1 setup are you using?

it is actually a culmination of two different types of speaker set ups and slightly modded. On the front and rear speakers I am using Logitach's 540, replaced the sub that came with this set to a moderate 8" sub woofer (since I blew up the little sub) the center channel speakers are Eagle techs 2.1 speakers that I removed the "full" range speakers with tweeters to give me the highs I did not have with the logitech speakers. I am using a Creative X-FI Fatality titanium pro sound card. I am looking for a good set of speakers to use but they are currently out of my price range

[Major_A]

I am looking for a good set of speakers to use but they are currently out of my price range

Isn't that generally the case with most audio equipment? Seems like you either have cheap junk or high-end bliss, no real middle ground. I've been rocking a 5.1 system for years. The Logitech Z5300 I'm running now has the ability to adjust the dB or output of the rear speakers to match or exceed the front ones. This helps when you have the rear speakers sitting at the back of the desk, instead of where they're supposed to be.

[Skippman]

Major, are those wood cabinet speakers? What size woofer and tweeter?

[Sttm]

I was about to ask what you needed a $200 sound card for if you're letting the speakers decode the sound but the headphones explains that. I'd considered the headphone route but I wear a headset 9 hours a day as is and don't want to on my time off.

How do you like your Xonar BTW?

Actually I needed the Soundcard for the 5.1 as my motherboard does not do Dolby Digital Live encoding; which is what allows the multichannel game audio to be transmitted over the optical cable. Otherwise you have to get 3 rca splitter cables and use the analog inputs, but then that affects audio quality. I like the Xonar a lot for that feature and it only cost around $70. Also the analog output is far superior on the sound card. I used to run my headphones directly off the card and I can get the volume up probably twice as loud without losing any clarity with the card over the motherboard.

[Major_A]

Major, are those wood cabinet speakers? What size woofer and tweeter?

Just the stock Logitech Z5300 setup.
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/439/315

[Skippman]

I was about to ask what you needed a $200 sound card for if you're letting the speakers decode the sound but the headphones explains that. I'd considered the headphone route but I wear a headset 9 hours a day as is and don't want to on my time off.

How do you like your Xonar BTW?

Actually I needed the Soundcard for the 5.1 as my motherboard does not do Dolby Digital Live encoding; which is what allows the multichannel game audio to be transmitted over the optical cable. Otherwise you have to get 3 rca splitter cables and use the analog inputs, but then that affects audio quality. I like the Xonar a lot for that feature and it only cost around $70. Also the analog output is far superior on the sound card. I used to run my headphones directly off the card and I can get the volume up probably twice as loud without losing any clarity with the card over the motherboard.

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that's wrong on needing Dolby Digital for 5.1 surround sound. The adapter that converts the PCM stream for the TOS/LINK optical should handle that and the DAC in the speakers that converts the PCM stream to analog audio should decode all 6 descret channels (5 channels and one LFE channel). This is provided the onboard sound card has a TOS/LINK connector. If not then an external sound card would be necessary. But this is immaterial to the discussion.

Now I believe you on the amp power with your headphones. Your experience with the headphones is exactly why I'm interested in two channel stereos ability to emulate surround sound. I know it's not a 1 for 1 reproduction but I wonder how well it can perform.

[skier]

I primarily use two 5w speakers on my desk and thats fine for me, but I use them more for ambient/gaming music than game sounds themselves

I use headphones for 5.1 (set I have has 3 speakers per ear piece) which is pretty nice as far as overall realism but 2.1 stereo still gives you a surround-feeling that is mostly comparable for a lot less time money and effort. Having said that and knowing who you are, I wouldn't settle for anything less than 5.1

[Skippman]

I primarily use two 5w speakers on my desk and thats fine for me, but I use them more for ambient/gaming music than game sounds themselves

I use headphones for 5.1 (set I have has 3 speakers per ear piece) which is pretty nice as far as overall realism but 2.1 stereo still gives you a surround-feeling that is mostly comparable for a lot less time money and effort. Having said that and knowing who you are, I wouldn't settle for anything less than 5.1

Well bro the speakers I'm looking at are professional monitor quality speakers. I think both sets retail for about $200. Really, my idea would be a two channel dedicated amp and a set of KEF iQ3's. I love my KEF's in my home theater. But a two channel amp alone would probably run me about $300 for a decent one. Actually, doing a quick search shows the KEF KHT1505 is about $500. That's double my budget though but it would be a sweet 5.1 surround sound system.

[Skippman]

Not to drag up old posts but I figured I should at least update this now that I've made some purchases.



Sitting on my desk right now is a set of Audio Engine 2 speakers from Audio Engine USA. I was lucky enough to pick them up during American TV's going out of business sale. I have to say I've never heard a set of PC speakers this clear! Now this does come with some caviots.

Pros:
Unquestionably the clearest desktop speakers I have ever heard. Period.
The best stereo separation I've ever heard from a speaker this small.
Tons of power.
Very attractive styling.
Build quality is what you'd expect from a true speaker company. No cheap plastic or paper cones here.


Cons:
Price $$$
They're monitors.
Sharp cut off about 60-70hz


I'd have to say in all honesty for music these are perhaps the best desktop speakers I've ever heard. Hell, these things rival most home theater speakers I hear in your typical big box store in both power and clarity. Their construction is fairly unique for a set of PC speakers given it's purpose more as a set of studio monitors than typical desktop speakers. As such the amp is internal to the left speaker and they are connected using standard 12ga braided speaker wire as opposed to some 1/8th" mini jack connector. All controls are located on the rear of the left speaker which isn't really a problem as most will adjust their gain through the OS rather than the speaker anyway.

These speakers sound amazing, but they are monitors and as such can sound rather "flat" at times. I can't tell if there's either a built in cross over or a very severe woofer limitation about 70-60hz but anything below that just seems to drop off. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the speakers are less than ideal for producing sound that low to begin with. Their enclosure volume is simply much to small for that. After a month of use I've moved them to my server/music player for music listening only when I'm working on school work/office work. While I have no doubt they'd be excellent for gaming their lack of low frequency response has me using my old Creative Labs 5.1 system for now.

[FZ1]

Would you miss the surround speakers going from 5 to 2 speakers?

[Skippman]

Depends on the application. For films? Defiantly. But then again I don't actually watch films on my desktop, I have a whole room for that.

Gaming? Hard to say. I used to use a Turtle Beach Motego soundcard driven by a Aureal Vortex chip back in the day when A3D and EAX were fighting it out for the new 3D Audio standard. The A3D stuff always blew my mind with how accurately it could reproduce 3D sound using stereo speakers. I'm assuming it was largely done with time alignment tricks by inducing delay on near field sounds to make far (rear) field sounds hit at the same time as near field sounds. I honestly don't think that the EAX extensions allow for that kind of acoustical trickery. So if you're wanting a true 3D audio experience while gaming I think Creative Labs crushed any idea of stereo speakers being able to produce adequate 3D sounds.

Honestly, these speakers fill a pretty specific niche. They're studio monitors. If you want excellent, and I do mean EXCELLENT, quality stereo playback from an audio source (FLAC, SACD, etc) then these are your speakers.

I really wish I could have snagged a second pair to try a pseudo quadraphonic setup. I have no doubt that if I had 4 of these I'd never go back to the cheap "desktop theater in a box" setup ever again as they sound THAT good. As it stands right now I'm still using my cheap Creative Labs Inspire 5300 5.1 system until I can find a replacement. I wish some of the speaker companies would make a real desktop 5.1 system. Trying to cobble something together using a AVR and 5.1 speaker setup works but man does it eat desktop real-estate.

[nancy19]

Well, I was away from computer games for a while, but got a new rig a few months ago to get back into it. There are plenty of older games out that i haven't played that still look great, so that's awesome, but almost none of them work with surround sound - I'm getting two channels only.
I have a 5.1 receiver connected to the computer via optical jack. Input/output is set to Dolby Digital. DVD's and HD downloads work fine, and even Crysis works in 5.1, but noting else so far (Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Red Faction Guerrilla) will give me anything but 2.1.
Any thoughts?

[Skippman]

Well, I was away from computer games for a while, but got a new rig a few months ago to get back into it. There are plenty of older games out that i haven't played that still look great, so that's awesome, but almost none of them work with surround sound - I'm getting two channels only.
I have a 5.1 receiver connected to the computer via optical jack. Input/output is set to Dolby Digital. DVD's and HD downloads work fine, and even Crysis works in 5.1, but noting else so far (Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Red Faction Guerrilla) will give me anything but 2.1.
Any thoughts?

Yep, you're doing it wrong.


OK, so here's your issue. Dolby Digital will decode whatever Dolby Digital signal you throw at it in it's native form. That means if you send it a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal through the TOS/LINK it's going to decode that as 6 separate, discrete channels: 5 normal channels and one LFE (low frequency, ie subwoofer) channel. Now when you throw 2 channel stereo at it, as in older games, the receiver will decode that as 2 channel stereo. Now, if you're wanting the receiver to mix your two channel stereo signal into a pseudo surround sound signal you need to add processing. You can do this by putting your receiver into ProLogic mode, or if it's a newer receiver ProLogic II mode.

This will cause the receiver to attempt to mix out the two channel stereo signal into a 4.1 or 5.1 signal, depending on your setup. It does this through some time alignment and phase shifting techniques and works to varying degree's. Don't expect your receiver to be able to turn a two channel stereo source into a full out 5.1 surround sound signal, there's just not enough data there. It's far easier to go from 5.1 to 2.1 or 2 channel as then the sound card or receiver has a reference point to pull from when it time aligns the signal. However, if all you're looking for is some extra back fill it will work just fine.

Now, for the LFE signal (the subwoofer) the ProLogic decoder will do a much better job of that than the rear fills as that's simply a function of the software cross-over. A cross-over is a mechanical or software driven frequency separator. It cuts off certain frequencies that the speaker is not designed to produce. In this case I believe the average cross-over point is set at either 110hz to 80hz depending on how you have your receiver configured. What this means is that anything higher frequency than that will be sent to the normal speakers and anything lower than that will go to the subwoofer which is FAR more capable of producing sounds in that range. That allows each of the speakers to do what they're tuned for.

So, after saying all that, set it to ProLogic or ProLogic 2 when using 2-channel audio sources if you want to use all of your speakers, and put it back to "Straight" "No Effect" or "Dolby Digital" when watching 5.1 sources.

I hope this makes sense.

[marjorie100]

I would say a 2 channel amp would almost definitely sound far better. Listen to I Flight Systems a 1k receiver and a 1k integrated stereo amp. No contest, I would imagine.