The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

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Re: Killer NIC

Post by Apoptosis » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:58 pm

chuggy wrote: This style of testing has been done by Hard OCP and other reviewers in the past, with very different results (i.e. -- Killer getting an Editor's Choice award because the measurable improvement was also feelable). Not knowing exactly how the testing was done, its hard to really comment on it. What I mean by this is that before and after testing is really only significant if the testing is done on the same server, with the same other players, and *super importantly* on the same map. For example, one Quake 3 or 4 map has dramatically different performance on a machine than others. In the end, I believe Nathan did his best to eliminate variability but when testing on one machine it is hard to do
As noted in the HardOCP article and to me on the phone the article that HardOCP wrote was tested at your marketing companies office on systems that were pre-configured and optimized by your staff to help show the differences. I would hope and expect there to be a measurable difference when this is done as that is why you are a company with a product.

So while Kyle and the guys at HardOCP did do real world testing it was in a different setting than what Legit Reviews did. Legit Reviews installed a clean install of Windows, updated the video card drivers, installed the games and patches, installed and updated the Killer NIC and played the games with the Killer NIC at default settings. I don't think you can get more realistic or accurate results. Legit Reviews is rather Legit and in this article I let the staff members and forum members determine the outcome, which is also the same one I came to after using both the Killer NIC and Killer K1 for a solid month.

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Post by stmok » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:58 pm

syncrod wrote:just another PhysX card scenario
There's a big difference here.

The PhysX card actually does something when you write an application that is optimised for it. So the benefits are there, when the developer can take advantage of it. IF its a "quick and dirty" implementation like in GRAW on PC, its not gonna do much. (as can be seen by benchmarks with GRAW, it did jacksh*t).

Now this "Kill NIC" concept is a different story altogether. You ain't gonna benefit unless you use it in a certain way. That is, download something while gaming...Even then the benefits aren't worth the price they charge for it.

As noted in the review itself, NO ONE noticed a difference with or without the card! Now how are BigFoot Networks gonna convince someone to spend a dime on their product if they don't notice a major difference?

This is the gamer or enthusiast market. Less than a fraction of them know how to write applications, and the majority are gulliable to marketing BS...But if they don't notice something big in improvements with a product, they won't spend a dime on it. (and no amount of marketing can help).

What I find most ironic about this product, is that even though it uses an embedded version of Linux, the full features of the cards themselves aren't fully supported under Linux.

That is, you can't access FNA in Linux because of the current status of the Linux driver!...Now how the heck are you gonna start a collection of FNA apps when the only people who actually know how to tinker with software are not being well supported to begin with? (As you folks can see, its not a well thought out plan).

Sure you can cross-compile for the Killer NIC, but you won't be 100% sure unless you buy the card to test and debug your FNA application! (Which you need a Windows box because the Linux driver doesn't support uploading FNA apps to the Killer NIC!). There is no way in hell the opensource community would interested. Its NOT affordable like WRT54G, NSLU, WL500G routers/network devices, and that alone will turn people off.

OT:
Price means EVERYTHING. Nvidia and ATI/AMD don't make money with the high-end video cards, they make it from the mainstream and budget markets. Here's a fact, less than 1% of the world's gamers have SLI or Crossfire and actually use it...Heck, have a think about this one: Marketing encourages people to think "AGP is dead"...And yet, both Nvidia and ATI are still gonna provide DirectX 10 cards in AGP form?

This is the message I'm getting:
"AGP is dead...But we're still supporting it." :roll:

Back when 3Dfx released the Voodoo 1 (3D accelerator), it changed the way gaming was to be done forever. It actually did something considerable, and the customer or end-user actually noticed a big difference. People were willing to pay money to get that difference.

Today, the technology world is highly reliant on marketing (hyped BS). They really have nothing to show to the consumer, (meaning something that will utterly blow them away), so they rely on marketing.

Examples include:

* PS3 = Pre-rendered demos were awesome. Then when the games came out...What a let down!

And for Linux users?

Sony said Linux would be pre-load as an alternative OS to choose...Guess what? Didn't happen. Install it yourself. (You have to pick a distro with PS3 support).

NO access to 3D Acceleration, because Sony used a hypervisor to prevent us opensource folks from writing a driver. So you can't do sh*t with it. Would've been awesome to port some OpenGL apps or use it as a frontend for MythTV.

At least IBM provided info with working on the Cell processor. :roll:

* Windows Vista = All those built-in security features MS was tooting about to sell Vista did NOTHING to prevent exploits attacking the ANI vulnerability. (Which results in Explorer crash and restart in an infinite crash loop!).

Conclusion? Security band-aids mean crap when the code and design decisions made by MS are the actual causes of Windows's security problems! (2 yrs ago, MS fixed the ANI problem in WinXP...Somehow it got unfixed, and the code was included into Vista!). Today, they have to re-fix the issue with a patch...Then provide another patch, because the first one causes problems!


Notice how in both the above cases its turning off consumers? (Consumers aren't interested).

Anyway, back to my point. You really can't justify the asking price for a Killer NIC to the consumer, given the benefits aren't great enough to be seriously noticed.

You won't see the benefits until you use it in a certain way AND get out benchmarking apps to see if there really is a difference.

If a reviewer needs a benchmark app to actually measure a difference, then its not gonna be beneficial to the typical gamer.

Save your money for a better web connection AND build your own Linux or BSD firewall with QoS. (prioritise gaming traffic ahead of P2P traffic).

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Re: Killer NIC

Post by AntiV6 » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:52 pm

chuggy wrote:Hey Gang,

I work for Bigfoot Networks, with Cinrellik. As Nathan said, we were glad to see that the Killer performed and delivered a 3MS improvement (on average) in Ping as well as a bump in FPS. We'd also like to thank the folks who played, as well as Nathan, for putting the time into the review.

This style of testing has been done by Hard OCP and other reviewers in the past, with very different results (i.e. -- Killer getting an Editor's Choice award because the measurable improvement was also feelable). Not knowing exactly how the testing was done, its hard to really comment on it. What I mean by this is that before and after testing is really only significant if the testing is done on the same server, with the same other players, and *super importantly* on the same map. For example, one Quake 3 or 4 map has dramatically different performance on a machine than others. In the end, I believe Nathan did his best to eliminate variability but when testing on one machine it is hard to do.

Another thing I felt was missing from the review was the benefit of downloading files with FN Torrent as opposed to using a regular bit torrent appliciation. With FN Torrent, you can download files without any interruption to your game play. Literally, you can download a movie while you save the world in Counterstrike, and it will play as if the download was not going on even though it is.

I am happy to answer any questions you guys have for me. Check out what PC Gamer had to say about Killer in its April 07 issue here : http://www.killernic.com/killernic/PDFs ... Review.pdf

Chug
Howdy,
Would you know if any PCI-E X1 NIC cards will come to the market? I could see getting one IF it was under $50 and was built for all our 1X ports.

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Post by DX » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:47 pm

This should have been tested with a broad range of games. GRAW happens to have an optimized networking subsystem. Not all games have an optimized networking subsystem. I have seen a review here where showing the differences between games and CPUs

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Post by Apoptosis » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:59 pm

Why spend $250 when some games are optimized then? Maybe Bigfoot Networks need to list the games that are optimized as if people play them they wouldn't need a card then... ATI and NVIDIA list what games are best optimized for their cards... Maybe Bigfoot needs to list which games will benefit the best from their product.

Oh and by the way we used GRAW and Counter-Strike for the test night and numerous others -- but for a 1ms to a 4ms difference in ping why post a ton of charts showing a bunch of nothing? Counter-Strike is not optimized, but a difference couldn't be felt either... Maybe you should tell those other sites to use Vista instead of XP and let some real consumers try it out for a change.

If I have to cherry pick what games I test the Killer NIC with then it's not worth $250... I picked a random game off the shelf and used it... GRAW is popular and ships with nearly ever GeForce 7xxx and GeForce 8xxx card that is sold, so thousands of GAMERS own it.

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Post by DX » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:08 pm

There are some that are such as WoW. But the over all is why buy this when a better video card or more ram typically have a bigger impact. What I'm saying is that even among popular games there are differences.

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Post by Indignity » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:06 pm

I'd have to agree with the majority of the posters to the thread.

The product itself looks awesome, but I draw the limit to the size of my e-penis at a Network Card @$250... Maybe if we had the pipes that they do in Japan I'd consider this a wise investment.

Kudos to Bigfoot for making the investment into this product & wish them luck!

Great job on the review again Nathan!
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Post by Skippman » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:08 pm

<rant on>
We here at AT&T are working to eclipse Japans digital network. In St. Louis alone we are spending over a quarter million dollars a week in manpower alone to install faster speed internet connections.

I can tell you definitivly that we are getting 25Mbps connections in parts of Texas, Wisconsin, and Illinois (near Chicago). Before you blame the phone company for not providing faster speeds, try contacting your local government to find out if they've denied us easment rights to install remote terminals. May times the only reason we haven't upgraded your local loop is because of the NIMBY mentality with regards to our field equipment.
</rant off>

No NIC is worth $250, bottom line.

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Post by dicecca112 » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:25 pm

Skippman wrote:
No NIC is worth $250, bottom line.
is worth than 10$ IMO
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Post by Indignity » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:22 pm

Skippman wrote:<rant on>
We here at AT&T are working to eclipse Japans digital network. In St. Louis alone we are spending over a quarter million dollars a week in manpower alone to install faster speed internet connections.

I can tell you definitivly that we are getting 25Mbps connections in parts of Texas, Wisconsin, and Illinois (near Chicago). Before you blame the phone company for not providing faster speeds, try contacting your local government to find out if they've denied us easment rights to install remote terminals. May times the only reason we haven't upgraded your local loop is because of the NIMBY mentality with regards to our field equipment.
</rant off>

No NIC is worth $250, bottom line.
[offtopic]
Wisconsin you say? Gosh, I hope that's the "Orange Tubing" they are running all around my neighborhood tearing up people's front yards lol...
Is there any way I could find out how long it will be until I might see it to my home? My whimpy 400kb/s DSL is killing me (excuse the pun)
[/offtopic]

I've been thinking about it since I posted earlier & tbh, I haven't purchased a network card for about 7-8 years now lol... If this would somehow help the internals of my system by measureable amounts, maybe I'd consider one, but as it stands it's really only asthetics.

Agreed, a big NO to expensive NIC Cards!
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Post by Zertz » Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:39 pm

Last time I bought a NIC it was for my old PII 300mhz because it didn't have any onboard networking stuff :?

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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by RobertSEO » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:56 am

Hi I am an Internet marketing professional and Long time unreal tournament enthusiast. basically since my college roommate got me hooked on it back in in 2000-2001.

I have also been a network admin at times over the years so I know a small bit about networks and hardware.

This is my take on the K1, which I bought yesterday at Fry's Electronics in Manhattan Beach, CA previously opened for $132.99. I bought it to make up for some lag I have been experiencing lately, and the fact that I have to use my ISP's provided router for my Verizon FIOS, and not a faster one I am use to.

After installing it, I went back and forth for a while while playing UT1999 CTF Face on one of my favorite dying but still has a heartbeat online UT servers. disabling re enabling the nics etc..

At first I was very disappointed, and it actually appeared that my ping was higher with the K1 and I was about to take it back tomorrow and just upgrade something else with the money.

Then I played a few games in a row with it, a few hours of total game time. And I started to notice some benefits that I liked. It seems that while ping times don't appear to be much different at all, in a crowded server like where I was playing approximately 10vs10 CTF, where I am flying around like crazy with my translocator with people shooting rockets and shock balls at me from every direction trying to stop my killing spree, I did start to notice that I was not experiencing lag as much as I had previously.

Normally, my system sometimes lately feels like I am playing in soup or something. I always thought it was server side lag, but lately have been wondering if my connection plus frame rate are causing it instead. With this card it really seemed more like it use to when I didn't have any lag. Again, not ping, but game lag.

Now let me explain my thoughts on the possible difference in the legit review.

I think I am an extreme example.
I am SUPER competitive and finicky about my system.
Every mS counts to me.
I have XP Pro x64 Edition
CPU is EM64T Family 15 Model 4 Stepping 3 GenuineIntel ~3015
Video is GeForce 9600 GSO
ISP is Verizon FIOS 20mbs/20mbs
My system is tweaked big time for Unreal Tournament 1999
I dont use it for anything else but ut
All Refresh Rates set to windows max 120
Frame Rate is always maxed out at 120 in games.
the cost of approx 140 isn't really an issue to me

My assessment is that because I am such an extreme example, with my performance tweaks, with my knowledge of tweaking UT and my years playing the same game I WAS able to notice a difference. It also might be because my system is significantly slower than the test unit unloading the CPU makes more of a difference.

I must say that it was not a blind study, as I was the one changing the nic back and forth.

Also, I am not so sure that I shouldn't just use the money to buy a better video card, or even maybe a new mobo/cpu combo wouldn't make more of an improvement. However, I am REALLY Not sure about the video/cpu making a bigger difference either because the game I play is almost 10 years old, and the bottle neck is not my video card and cpu. Maybe it would be if I was playing UT3 every night instead, but I am not.

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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by DMB2000uk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:28 am

Does your current motherboard support any core 2 processors? And is it DDR2?

As if the answer to those is yes, you'd get the same performance benefits in swapping to a core 2 (based, so pentium dual core if you want to spend as little as possible) CPU (or CPU & mobo combo).

I suspect that the improvement in your system you have seen with the K1 is due to it offloading the CPU enough for it to keep the framerate up during the intense parts of the game.

But if you are happy with your current setup (K1 included) then it's your money to spend how you see fit :mrgreen:

Dan
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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by Darkstar » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:54 am

Seeing as this is your first post, welcome to the forums......

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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by martini161 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:19 pm

FYI: your FiOS router doesnt have anything to do with it. i have use mine and the only problems i have with it are wireless dropouts and the fact that it has an extremely limited NAT. Since either way you are going to be limited by your internet connection (with the exception of internal network transfers, which doesnt have an effect on gaming) you probably just assume that its infierior to your old router, making you think its slower. if you really want to, you can always run ethernet from your ONT to your old router and use it that way. like dan said, the reason you feel that you lag less is probably due to it offloading a little bit from your cpu.

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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by RobertSEO » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:59 am

Here are specs from gigabyte.
GA-8I945PL-G
Intel® Pentium® D Processor
Dual channel DDR2 533 memory architecture
SATA 3Gb/s storage interface
PCI-Express x16 interface
Integrated high-speed Gigabit Ethernet connection
Thanks for the core 2 suggestion....I will read up on it. Its been years since I have been up to date on hardware. I actually bought the motherboard/cpu combo for an old boss then got stuck with it when he got fired and disappeared...I Never really meant it to be a gaming system......wasn't till my old motherboard bios bricked that realized I could install 64 bit xp on it and also realized I could easily buy a cheap PCI-Express video card start the system for gaming.

Seems like stuff changes so fast now in days, you guys have a tough job.
you can always run ethernet from your ONT
Ahh yes, that is EXACTLY the type of thing I was looking for. I had never heard of an ONT so just googled it, thanks.

By buying the K1 I was trying to address my increased latency issue I have had with first homePNA U-Verse in San Diego, and now MoCA FIOS in LA. I can't snipe as well now and its really bugging me lately :P

I even briefly looked into getting a MoCA Network adapter, but I figured on their end they would never let a new mac address connect....not really sure how that all works still trying to figure it out ...either way...thanks for the ONT lead there.

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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by DMB2000uk » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:10 am

That board doesn't support core 2 (or better), so you'd have to get a new motherboard as well to upgrade the CPU to anything worthwhile.

If you want to spend the money for then you could get something better than what you have now for as little as $200 (obviously, the more you spend, the better it will be, and up to a certain point the longer down the line it will last you)

How much RAM do you currently have?

Dan
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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by RobertSEO » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:10 am

How much RAM do you currently have?
1.5 gigs

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Re: The Killer NIC and Killer K1 Gaming Network Cards

Post by martini161 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:40 pm

RobertSEO wrote:
you can always run ethernet from your ONT
Ahh yes, that is EXACTLY the type of thing I was looking for. I had never heard of an ONT so just googled it, thanks.

By buying the K1 I was trying to address my increased latency issue I have had with first homePNA U-Verse in San Diego, and now MoCA FIOS in LA. I can't snipe as well now and its really bugging me lately :P

I even briefly looked into getting a MoCA Network adapter, but I figured on their end they would never let a new mac address connect....not really sure how that all works still trying to figure it out ...either way...thanks for the ONT lead there.
Actually, they will! if you have TV, you need the MoCA adapter in order to get the guide and widgets, but if you dont have TV you can just pull a cable from the ONT to your router, call up verizon, ask them to switch it from MoCA to ethernet and your good to go! ive been meaning to do it for quite awhile but my ONT is right next to the power cables so i need to find some shielded cat5 first. Check out this site, http://www.dslreports.com/ all kinds of great stuff there and there are helpfull people on the forums, including actuall FiOS techs! http://www.dslreports.com/faq/verizonfi ... ntec#15990 there some more info about replacing the actiontec

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