The holidays

sbohdan · Post by **sbohdan** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:55 am

Kerii wrote:
sbohdan wrote:EDIT: one more thing: when people migrate to another country, they should be required to adopt to that country, instead of trying to change the politics and religion to their own liking.
Should we be living in teepees and wearing buffalo skins and feathered headbands then?

Awonawilona bless America!

well I was talking about the United States of America as a country but unfortunatelly you have a point there. sort of. even though north american indians didn't have a unified country (were just bigger or smaller tribes without a constitution - of course this didn't make it right to anihilate them but you can't unmake the past). I'm saying that there is a majority now in this country who have a country based on law, order and constitution supposedly and has a right to live upon the principles this country was fund of without having to bend to left and right according to every minority that comes here as a refugee first and then coming up with demands to change everything to what they had in the country where they came from. this being said, I'm canadian and have a view on this as an outsider but actually we have similar problems here in Canada so I can relate to this.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:25 am

infinitevalence wrote:My only coment to Rich, is just remember that there are vocal minorities on both sides trying to push agends. While i dont always like the "liberal" agenda i do think that a open PC attitude is better than the more conservitive christain agenda. I guess i just feel that the conservitive christain agenda is more apt to offend more people and cause more tension then the liberal one. But that is not in all cases thats for sure.

Oh no, I wasn't pointing out libs or cons, just saying it always seems there is a vocal minority who huffs and puffs until they get their way. I don't look at myself as being liberal or conservative (I'm probably more conservative) because I look at each issue on its own, i don't buy into the BS of people supporting a cause based on political affiliation.

As to the comment about teepees, it was a travesty what happened to native americans..... and equally sad that all the land we chased them off of is now just sitting there, mostly unoccupied.......but thats the way life goes..... its a form of natural selection and has happened more than once over the course of the planets history.....I laugh when I always hear the US singled out for slavery, taking land, wars, religion, etc......Europeans are some serious hypocrites.

Kerii · Post by **Kerii** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:55 am

sbohdan wrote:well I was talking about the United States of America as a country but unfortunatelly you have a point there. sort of. even though north american indians didn't have a unified country (were just bigger or smaller tribes without a constitution - of course this didn't make it right to anihilate them but you can't unmake the past). I'm saying that there is a majority now in this country who have a country based on law, order and constitution supposedly and has a right to live upon the principles this country was fund of without having to bend to left and right according to every minority that comes here as a refugee first and then coming up with demands to change everything to what they had in the country where they came from. this being said, I'm canadian and have a view on this as an outsider but actually we have similar problems here in Canada so I can relate to this.

I don't know, it always seemed (at least up here in the northwest) that people voluntarily do so and not because it's being forced on them. Afterall, religious freedom right? We can each celebrate whatever we want, even if it does offend some people it's our right, hell the KKK are still around.

Honestly, I've never seen nor heard of anyone ever complaining about the use of Christ in Christmas or whatnot (except maybe once on an internet forum several years ago), seems more to me like business management just went a bit overboard on being politically correct to try and protect every last penny on that bottom line. Can't exactly blame them for trying, they're just doing the job that we paid them to do with our little paper tickets.

Amy · Post by **Amy** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:29 am

I didn't read anyone's reply because I'm lazy like that, but here's my take on it:

The reason why people choose to say "Happy Holidays" is because they don't know which holiday you are celebrating. There are many different holidays going on at this time of the year, and by saying "Happy Holidays," you are encompassing all of those holidays instead of assuming everyone celebrates Christmas. While it is true that many (most) non-Christians celebrate Christmas for some strange reason (explain that one to me??), there are many who do not (Jews, Muslims, etc.). It is not fair to assume that everyone celebrates this holiday. I have never had anyone tell me, "Happy Hannakuh", and I'm none the worse for it because I do not celebrate Hannakuh. Would I be offended? No. But I, for one, can see why when speaking to the general public, it's better to say, "Happy Holidays" instead of assuming they are God-Fearing Christians celebrating Christmas.

Bite-Me-2 · Post by **Bite-Me-2** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:08 am

I could give a crap either way, Bah Hum bug on it all I say, Bah Hum Bug............

rayoflight · Post by **rayoflight** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:25 am

I don't think saying Merry Christmas to someone is assuming they celebrate Christ or believe that way. I think that makes it obvious that is how you celebrate.

Amy · Post by **Amy** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:39 am

rayoflight wrote:I don't think saying Merry Christmas to someone is assuming they celebrate Christ or believe that way. I think that makes it obvious that is how you celebrate.

That is definitely another way of looking at it. Come to think of it, I know some Jews, but I have never actually told them, "Happy Hannakuh"...can you tell that I'm extremely opinionated on this?

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:55 am

Amy wrote:I didn't read anyone's reply because I'm lazy like that, but here's my take on it:

The reason why people choose to say "Happy Holidays" is because they don't know which holiday you are celebrating. There are many different holidays going on at this time of the year, and by saying "Happy Holidays," you are encompassing all of those holidays instead of assuming everyone celebrates Christmas. While it is true that many (most) non-Christians celebrate Christmas for some strange reason (explain that one to me??), there are many who do not (Jews, Muslims, etc.). It is not fair to assume that everyone celebrates this holiday. I have never had anyone tell me, "Happy Hannakuh", and I'm none the worse for it because I do not celebrate Hannakuh. Would I be offended? No. But I, for one, can see why when speaking to the general public, it's better to say, "Happy Holidays" instead of assuming they are God-Fearing Christians celebrating Christmas.

I know what you are saying, but my point was that after watching the news the last couple of nights (usually FOX News because its all I can stomach) that people don't say Merry Christmas because it offends people of other faiths. If it were like you said, and they just wanted to generalize, then that would be one thing.....but when firemen who have to spend Christmas at a firehouse can't celebrate with a christmas tree....or Wal Mart employees are told NOT to say Merry Christmas, there is something fundamentally wrong.. I don't crap on anyone elses religion or beliefs (except Scientology) and I don't expect them to do it to me.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:57 am

Amy wrote:
rayoflight wrote:I don't think saying Merry Christmas to someone is assuming they celebrate Christ or believe that way. I think that makes it obvious that is how you celebrate.
That is definitely another way of looking at it. Come to think of it, I know some Jews, but I have never actually told them, "Happy Hannakuh"...can you tell that I'm extremely opinionated on this?

Why do we have to handle every other groups idealogies with kid gloves, but then have to turn around and hide ours?

bubba · Post by **bubba** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:03 am

in ways over the last couple of years I have watched stuff at my work (and the wifes) around the holidays and how people react to things.

My work every year before the "Christmas" shut down we have a "Christmas" dinner. well there are a lot of guys here hard core cathlics, some that are card caring muslims, some jews and we have a few jehovah here as well, and the rest could care less. only one refranes from the dinner or any "party" for that matter, a female and hard core jehovah. the others file in-line like everyone else.

same for the "Christmas" bonus, no one turns that down, except you guessed it the same lady that doesnt go to the parties, because its "christmas bonus", so I have come to the conclusion that most folks are religious when the benifits them. except the ones that fallow their faith to the letter.

Now to stop saying "merry christmas" no I dont think so, but if the person running the door at a buisness or any gov office, then yeah, be nice across the baord have them say "happy holidays" to the folks coming and going. Also if that person follows a diff path then if wouldnt be very cool to make that pearson go against their belief.

but walking down the street, some one told me "happy **insert beleif saying here**" I'm going to reply back "back at ya"

before long the wold is going to be to PC and get to the other end of the scale and you'll be afraid to say hi to someone because it might offend them.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:09 am

bubba wrote:in ways over the last couple of years I have watched stuff at my work (and the wifes) around the holidays and how people react to things.

My work every year before the "Christmas" shut down we have a "Christmas" dinner. well there are a lot of guys here hard core cathlics, some that are card caring muslims, some jews and we have a few jehovah here as well, and the rest could care less. only one refranes from the dinner or any "party" for that matter, a female and hard core jehovah. the others file in-line like everyone else.

same for the "Christmas" bonus, no one turns that down, except you guessed it the same lady that doesnt go to the parties, because its "christmas bonus", so I have come to the conclusion that most folks are religious when the benifits them. except the ones that fallow their faith to the letter.

Now to stop saying "merry christmas" no I dont think so, but if the person running the door at a buisness or any gov office, then yeah, be nice across the baord have them say "happy holidays" to the folks coming and going. Also if that person follows a diff path then if wouldnt be very cool to make that pearson go against their belief.

but walking down the street, some one told me "happy **insert beleif saying here**" I'm going to reply back "back at ya"

before long the wold is going to be to PC and get to the other end of the scale and you'll be afraid to say hi to someone because it might offend them.

exactly! how can something so simple, yet filled with so much goodwill and joy (The Chrstmas cease-fire during WW1 among many other things) be so offensive. I mean if it were like "Big Hooters Day", or something really controversial or offensive, that would be different. You also bring up a good point that most other faiths are not offended, I saw a neat story on the news last night were a Muslim man, in a Midwest town, led a petition to get Merry Christmas lights and sign put back up, because he thought the whole thing was ridiculous.
Man, i can't believe how much this topic has taken off, or the diversity of opinions it has created....thanks guys, and gals.

Zelig · Post by **Zelig** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:15 pm

I don't really care, whatever makes people happy is fine with me. I celebrate "Christmas" as a non-religious event, just some time off with family, but I'm fine with whatever anyone else wants to do, as long as nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to.

I definitely agree with keeping anything religious out of courts and anything relating to the government; separation of church and state.

gvblake22 · Post by **gvblake22** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:38 pm

Well, the whole thing is really about relativaty, cultural relativaty to be exact. If anyone has taken a philosophy course, you should know what I'm talking about.
It refers to the idea that it is not correct (or there is no basis) for one culture to criticize another because of differences because the other culture's belief system is nothing like that of yours.
Well, I feel like I've gotten a little side tracked, but my point still remains. It really isn't right for one group of people to say that the word Christmas is bad, because it is good to someone else. And the opposite is true. To the "Christmas" culture, taking what they believe as a "holy" day and treating it as though it were not is bad. So in the end, everyone just argues themselves in circles and the only thing that ever gets accomplished is eveyone gets pissed off at the other. People just need to take a step back and realize that there are lots of different people with lots of different beliefs and understand that this is just the way the world is, whether you like it or not. You just have to accept this fact, understand it, get over it, and move on and live your life the way you want to live it (understanding at the same time that everyone else just wants to do the same thing).

And I know you can punch back with the argument, "Well, what happens when someone's way of life negatively impacts my life?!" To that I say,

Seriously though, I don't really have a better answer for that last question besides, "Reasonably and peacefully work out your differences to come to a mutual agreement that all parties can live with."

I didn't vote because I didn't see an option that 100% suited how I felt. So I will just leave my comment and be done with it. You definately stirred up a huge can-O-worms with this thread, but I think we can keep it under control. There are just so many different sides to the story and so many other things at play and so many different related issues that it's practically impossible to try and tackle something like this and make any reasonable sense out of it.

killswitch83 · Post by **killswitch83** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:48 pm

gvblake22 wrote: I didn't vote because I didn't see an option that 100% suited how I felt.

you're not the only one, let me tell you. Even though I got my voter registration card late in the 2004 election year, I didn't really feel it to be right to vote for either side, because Kerry is a lying hypocrite who released only parts of his military record (from what I remember), and Bush is a p***y (you fill in the blanks, you know what I'm saying) and I knew it was going to come to the point where both Conservatives and Democrats, both Liberal and Conservative, would end up hating Bush. I'm glad he's getting out of office, but he drove places like SC in the dumps by furthering NAFTA with CAFTA, thus making it easier for jobs to go overseas and hard-working Americans not have decent livelihoods (I had two good friends in classes with me who have both been screwed by NAFTA recently, and have to rely on state funding for college and living everyday, it's sad really.....). I'll have to wait and see what comes up in 2008 concerning presidential candidates (and so far, I don't see anyone I like, except Giuliani, and I don't think he's really going to run anyways).

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:58 pm

i'm completely fine with "happy holidays." it seems more fitting than "merry christmas," because it's all-encompassing. hannukah is in the same relative block of time as christmas, so why disregard one and not the other? since they're both holidays, why not kill two birds with one stone? "happy holidays" = more proper.

however, boston's "holiday tree" is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. you don't call the easter bunny "the springtime bunny" or a menorrah a "festive candlestick".... any coniferous tree during the holiday season put on display and decorated is a frigging christmas tree. the end.

i don't see too much wrong with political correctness, but this is rediculous. i don't agree with overdoing the politically correct stuff when it comes down to what definitions. i tell my jewish buddies "happy hannukah" and my non-jewish buddies "merry christmas"... whether they believe in Christ or not is irrelavent.... christmas is about getting new stuff and being around people you love, not about Jesus' birth (Christ was born sometime in april. whether someone wants to celebrate Christ's birth on december 25 or not has nothing to do with me or if i say "happy holidays" or "merry christmas"). if i'm not sure whether they're jewish or not, i'll tell them "happy holidays."

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:59 pm

infinitevalence wrote:My only coment to Rich, is just remember that there are vocal minorities on both sides trying to push agends. While i dont always like the "liberal" agenda i do think that a open PC attitude is better than the more conservitive christain agenda. I guess i just feel that the conservitive christain agenda is more apt to offend more people and cause more tension then the liberal one. But that is not in all cases thats for sure.

agree 100%

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:11 pm

audiophile wrote:i'm completely fine with "happy holidays." it seems more fitting than "merry christmas," because it's all-encompassing. hannukah is in the same relative block of time as christmas, so why disregard one and not the other? since they're both holidays, why not kill two birds with one stone? "happy holidays" = more proper.

however, boston's "holiday tree" is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. you don't call the easter bunny "the springtime bunny" or a menorrah a "festive candlestick".... any coniferous tree during the holiday season put on display and decorated is a frigging christmas tree. the end.

i don't see too much wrong with political correctness, but this is rediculous. i don't agree with overdoing the politically correct stuff when it comes down to what definitions. i tell my jewish buddies "happy hannukah" and my non-jewish buddies "merry christmas"... whether they believe in Christ or not is irrelavent.... christmas is about getting new stuff and being around people you love, not about Jesus' birth (Christ was born sometime in april. whether someone wants to celebrate Christ's birth on december 25 or not has nothing to do with me or if i say "happy holidays" or "merry christmas"). if i'm not sure whether they're jewish or not, i'll tell them "happy holidays."

Who said anything about disregarding anyone's holiday? I don't believe any of them overlap, so if someone you know celebrates a certain day, wish them a happy one.......Happy Holidays seems so generic and insincere.

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:38 am

capper5016 wrote:Happy Holidays seems so generic and insincere.

i'm gonna have to disagree. i think the act of even saying it shows sincerity. i think blanketing everyone with "merry christmas" isn't exactly fair to those who celebrate other things. i think it leads towards ignorance if other holidays are cast aside to make way for almighty "christmas." know what i mean? i can see your point and all, but i disagree.

killswitch83 · Post by **killswitch83** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:43 am

don't just read that one part, also read the part where he says to wish someone a happy whatever holiday they celebrate as well, don't just look at it as an all Christmas thing, I happen to agree with that point, everyone celebrates differently, and if they wish you a certain holiday, wish them the same, easy as that.....Happy Holidays does sound sterile and insincere in comparision to this....don't take text out of context man, read everything, I do, lol.

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:33 am

i did read everything. my interpretation was that although he wishes people a happy whatever, he thinks "happy holidays" is insincere. i guess something was lost in translation.

Legit Reviews

The holidays

What do you think?