Invasion of Privacy?

A place to rant about politics, life, or just anything you damn well feel like telling others.

Should the government be allowed to eavesdrop on American Citizens to thwart future terrorist attacks?

Certainly. I have nothing to hide.
7
25%
Heck no! That's invasion of my privacy!
18
64%
I'm just not sure. I see both sides of the topic.
3
11%
 
Total votes: 28

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Bio-Hazard
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Post by Bio-Hazard »

kenc51 wrote: What happens after it becomes the norm to have them checking everyone, and they still don't find any usefull info?
They will try to "amend" your basic rights even more.......and it will go on and on.........

People need to make it very clear... NO!
(a country should be governed by the people!)
Still really don't bother me one way of the other, I still do as I please. They can snoop all they want, that won't change what I do or how I act.
The government has always done that sort of snooping in all countries around the world over the past few hundred years. It's just a huge topic of conversation right now.
You would really be surprized at just who is snooping on who it the free countries of the world without the common people having the least idea of what's going on. It will never stop, so why get all worked up about it.
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Post by -mogwai »

you may live your life differently than someone else who's innocent, but "suspicious".

that's the real issue.... not how YOU live your life, but how other innocent people may live their life.

not only that, but there have been many cases in which some innocent people were snatched up and stayed a few months at at git-mo thanks to the ever-safe patriot act. this poor guy's family didn't know what was happening to him all those months... his visa ran out... his family had to be deported... his family went poor because they couldn't pay rent because he lost his job (which is kinda obvious when you don't show up for work because you're busy being interrogated).

i don't trust our government enough with unchecked power... i don't trust any president with that much power. that's why we had framers draft a constitution to prevent it.

there's a legal way to do what bush wants.... i don't understand why he doesn't go that route? oh... wait.... i know why... because he wants unchecked power and so do all of his little money-grubbing friends. i get it, now.

i wonder if "hail to the chief" plays in bush's head while he's pissing on our constitution...

sidenote: what the hell ever happened with cheney being in the hot seat with the haliburton/anderson accounting scandal?? what about karl rove??? why aren't these people held accountable for ANYTHING?!!?!

disgusting.
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Post by killswitch83 »

there's definitely objectionable and questionable things going on right now with the govt.....so much so you know that even the "right-wing" party is up in arms over some of Bush's actions....one thing though, just remember that it's a conglomerate of things other than him who do things to crap on our constitution......judicial activism is rampant too, so spread blame as it should be here. Also, we're talking about the same thing about people getting snatched up, and some even due to mistaken identity, so I'm with you on that one, it shouldn't be able to happen like that, unless there's overwhelming "just cause" for it. I really don't want to see the govt transform this country into a communist or socialist society.......Some checks and balances are most definitely required here that aren't being exercised. However, just remember we have +-3 more years of him unless he really f**ks up and both parties call for his unanimous impeachment, something I really doubt we'll see....or will we?
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Post by Tim Burton »

Uh, first off the question isn't written correctly. It should be written:

Should the US government be allowed to listen into INTERNATIONAL calls and E-mails that are traced to or from numbers or nations with terrorist ties if one of the people making the call is a citizen.

That is a factual poll, what you have is a knee jerk hysteria poll.

I say, "Yes.", to my above poll for the following reasons.

1. It is Constitutional. The President has a duty to protect the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. This is why Article 2 gives him power over national defense. This means that he is not bound by the Constitution with regards to Acts of War. No, this doesn't mean he can just go after you or me, but someone who is trying to commit an act of war, he can go after without the red tape of the Bill of Rights.

2. All people tapped had connections to either phone lines or by name in captured Al Quaeda intelligence.

3. It does not violate the 4th Amendment.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
There are a few key points. It is not unreasonable in war to spy on the enemy. If information is disclosed that you are an enemy, it is no longer unreasonable to to search your property. Instead in war time it is unreasonable to seek a Warrant, which normally takes days.

It isn't just me, but the Supreme Court who believes that:
For the view that warrantless surveillance, though impermissible in domestic security cases, may be constitutional where foreign powers are involved, see United States v. Smith, 321 F. Supp. 424, 425-426 (CD Cal. 1971); and American Bar Association Project on Standards for Criminal Justice, Electronic Surveillance 120, 121 (Approved Draft 1971, and Feb. 1971 Supp. 11). See also United States v. Clay. 430 F.2d 165 (CA5 1970).
As quoted from: http://rfraley301.blogspot.com/2005/12/ ... nable.html

4. There is Congressional oversite every 45 days.

5. I don't know why having a judge look at the case and then give a warrant makes it "all better". Is a judge less likely to be corrupt than a President? Is a judge more likely to be righteous than a President?

6. The outrage that is happening is strangely silent when considering that warrantless searches have been going on before with international dealings. Even worse, is Clinton did it to citizen to citizen communications in Project Echelon and recorded and spied on political enemies, unlike Bush who has kept the spying to terrorists and possible terrorists.
But in fact, the NSA (When Clinton was in Office)had been monitoring private domestic telephone conversations on a much larger scale throughout the 1990s - all of it done without a court order, let alone a catalyst like the 9/11 attacks.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005 ... 1452.shtml

7. And a list of warrantless searches that occur everyday, all with the blessings of the citizens:

http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/ ... 201735.asp
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Post by Bigedmond »

Tim Burton wrote:Uh, first off the question isn't written correctly. It should be written:

Should the US government be allowed to listen into INTERNATIONAL calls and E-mails that are traced to or from numbers or nations with terrorist ties if one of the people making the call is a citizen.
What perfect world you must live in. I by no means want to flame you, but you seem a little delusional. So they have admited to international calls. So i pose a few questions for you to ponder.

1. Where is the list of those people. I know it will be lclassified as top secert, but isnt that an easy cover?

2. If these people had ties with AQ, why not just get the signature of a judge? Then it could be seen as legal, and not an over use of powers. Then it would break the checks and balances established in our laws.

3. Admitting to spying on international calls could be seen as a diversion from the real problem. That calls made inside the US are being monitored?

4. Why is it that Clinton is always used by those on the right to justify what the are doing. They use his actions as un-american yet they do the same. Is there no one else the Republican party can go after other then Bill Clinton? I mean, he hasnt been a president for what 5 years.


I dont know, but i really think this topic is more important then the elections in Iraq. I mean, it is happening to us. Then watching the Right try to make the media look bad for letting the people know about something that affects them directly. Cause we all know, now that the elections have are done, Iraq is now safe for all, and that roadside bombs there are so rare, so they need to be covered with extreme detail right.

Either way, this is just :beatdeadhorse:


BTW, edit to add this. That newsmax site is extremely right. I read 1 story and knew then that nothing on that site could be trusted. So quoting it only proves that you beleive what ever is put in front of you. Any site that puts Rush Limbaugh as a poster boy is full of crap.
Last edited by Bigedmond on Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kenc51 »

grunt wrote:Without a doubt they should. There shouldnt be anything stopping them from catching and killing every last piece of scum trying to pull some crap here. I would swap your "privacy" for those lives lost in N.Y. Basically if they have a lead they need to chase it, they shouldnt have to stand in line for a warrant to tap a damn phone. After the fact they should have to explain to some other authority as to why they did it. Also, they should only be allowed to pursue terrorist threats..

My 2 cents...
It's good to hear your point of view!
You say, if they have a lead chase it......No one is saying not to chase any leads.......Just going after a terrorist who is in th US or is planning something in Europe.....will not stop the problem.....that would be a temp fix (although they should hunt these people down)....They should be working on a long term solution.....this means stopping young muslims etc. from getting their views on the world distorted when they grow up.......What needs to change is their views on Americans, that includes you guys serving in Iraq.......No-one here except you Grunt can know what it's really like......But stability needs to be brought to the whole mid-east region......It needs to be done in a way that the whole world can see....in the end everyone will need to be able to look back when it's over and not feel cheated somehow....this could mean no us oil companies based there.....Also the US have being monitoring interternation calls for years, the issue is monitoring domestic calls!!!!

Keep safe Grunt!!!
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Post by Bigedmond »

grunt wrote:Without a doubt they should. There shouldnt be anything stopping them from catching and killing every last piece of scum trying to pull some crap here. I would swap your "privacy" for those lives lost in N.Y. Basically if they have a lead they need to chase it, they shouldnt have to stand in line for a warrant to tap a damn phone. After the fact they should have to explain to some other authority as to why they did it. Also, they should only be allowed to pursue terrorist threats..

My 2 cents...
Grunt, without a doutb, i am grateful for the service you provide. The freedoms you and your fellow soldiers protect. You guys are the front lines in defending freedom, but I think the people that sent you and the other soldiers found away to strip those freedoms from us.

I dont think the hundreds of thousands that have died in previous wars like ww1, ww2, korea, nam should have died in vain when the true enemy to freedom was the politicians sending them to war. The only way to stop a terrorist is the kill them. To Defend freedom, one should not lose freedom.
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Post by Dragon_Cooler »

sbohdan wrote:
infinitevalence wrote:Sorry but im opposed, we are inoccent until proven guilty. The type of access you describe, which is not what they are working on getting, should not be alowd and is unconstitutional.
don't be sorry. I'm slowly starting to believe the US government might have something to do with the 9/11 attacks (Bush family connections with saudi king's family, binladen family, knowing about the attacks reported by the FBI and doing nothing, not to mention that the US government created bin laden and trained his troops, organized the network etc.) because all they do is using 9/11 as an excuse to make all the unconstitucional laws like that and use the army in connection with any country that has anything to do with OIL (Kuwait, Irak - Afghanistan is neglected even though the alkaida is supposedly there but no OIL)
just my 2 cents...
hey i have some videos on 9/11 that show physically it coulnt have happened without help from explosives, and how it was a missle that hit the pentegon. some great videos!! I will have to see how i can get them out on FTP.
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Post by Apoptosis »

Tim Burton wrote:Should the US government be allowed to listen into INTERNATIONAL calls and E-mails that are traced to or from numbers or nations with terrorist ties if one of the people making the call is a citizen.
I also agree and voted yes. Nothing in the world today is private, so it's pointless to fight it if you ask me. I'd rather they tell us they are instead of trying to cover it up.
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Post by Bio-Hazard »

Yeppers, that's it in a hand basket. Most Europian countries do it on a regular basis, but don't tell anyone that they are doing it. The UK was one of the biggest countries that did it back in the days when the IRA were up in arms all the time. And the Germans when the RAF were blowing everything up in the '70's and '80's.
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Post by kenc51 »

Bio-Hazard wrote:Yeppers, that's it in a hand basket. Most Europian countries do it on a regular basis, but don't tell anyone that they are doing it. The UK was one of the biggest countries that did it back in the days when the IRA were up in arms all the time. And the Germans when the RAF were blowing everything up in the '70's and '80's.
Yep the UK did do that with the IRA.....except it was Maggie Thatcher who put the peace proccess back 20years........people need to have transparency...hiding things only causes paranoia....then things get worse

It's simple.....The reason why America is a target is because of so-called Imans etc. they brainwash kids in religious colleges.....because of the fact its "trendy" to hate america in these countries makes it even easier to distort the truth....

It's standard for us Irish to hate the British....(brits out & all that)
After a few beers and such, we joke and say all this as it's very common and we grew up that way.....Even Irish Radio offers a lo-call number to people in the north to all the presenter, the bbc don't offer any number except a premium rate number for us to contact them.
Now it's the same with the middle east, they grew up watching american tv and always seen their people portrayed as the baddies......
Now when you, add to the fact that they grew up "hating" america, It doesn't take much to push them over the line, especially when they don't have food or aid....all it takes is someone to offer pipe dreams (bush or terrorist)

BTW -> no offence to any UK members ;)
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Post by -mogwai »

i agree with international tracking... but that's different than doing it to people at home, which is part of what bush's administration is proposing.

i'm pretty sick of this age of fear this administration has promoted.... fear keeps people in check, which is what the administration's goal is.

the bush administration is the man behind the curtain and the curtain is fear.

"pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... the great... er..... oz has spoken!!!"
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Post by T-Shirt »

There is a procedure in place via the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, (which oversees government applications for secret surveillance or searches of foreigners and U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism or espionage.) which allows the for warrants to be issued, even retroactively for items related to national security.
Why does Bush refuse to use this legal method?

A clue is found in Cheny's statement
"

Vice President Dick Cheney strongly defended the surveillance program and called for "strong and robust" presidential powers.

Cheney -- a former member of congress, defense secretary and White House chief of staff under President Ford -- said executive authority has been eroding since the Watergate and Vietnam eras.

"I believe in a strong, robust executive authority and I think that the world we live in demands it," Cheney said.

"I would argue that the actions that we've taken there are totally appropriate and consistent with the constitutional authority of the president. ... You know, it's not an accident that we haven't been hit in four years," the vice president said, speaking with reporters Tuesday on Air Force Two en route from Pakistan to Oman.


What he fails to acknowledge is the reason " has been eroding since the Watergate and Vietnam eras." was because certain Presidents ABUSED those powers for personal/political benifit, and it appears (once again) that the Bush adminstration (by far, already the most politically manipulative we have seen since watergate) is choosing to skirt the Constitution "for our own good" avoiding the safeguards (supervision by the court, congrssional oversight) put in place to avoid such abuses.
Yes, "the government" may at times need to spy on citizens/foriegn nationals, but need to follow the legal path when doing so.
the fact that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales 'certifies' it as legal (he is already tied to numerous questionable judgements as to the legality of treatment of POW's in Cuba/Iraq/somewhere we don't know about) gives me no confidence that such a path is being followed.
As far as similar events in europe, remember why the US exists at all was to escape soverign absolute powers of a monarchy.
he's not King Bush
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Post by T-Shirt »

Apoptosis wrote:

I also agree and voted yes. Nothing in the world today is private, so it's pointless to fight it if you ask me.
Do you thing that the people of Iraq, had the same attitude when Saddam ruled them?
either by fear or trickry their rights as citizen were taken, just as ours are inch by inch.
the fact that congress rejected a quick and permenent renewal of the patriot act, opting instead for a more careful re-examianation of the powers needed verses the risks of the loss of rights, is a positive step towards restoring the balance of power.
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DragonCooler wrote: hey i have some videos on 9/11 that show physically it coulnt have happened without help from explosives, and how it was a missle that hit the pentegon. some great videos!! I will have to see how i can get them out on FTP.
hey if it's not a joke: I wanna see those :shock:
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Post by sbohdan »

audiophile wrote:i agree with international tracking... but that's different than doing it to people at home, which is part of what bush's administration is proposing.

i'm pretty sick of this age of fear this administration has promoted.... fear keeps people in check, which is what the administration's goal is.

the bush administration is the man behind the curtain and the curtain is fear.

"pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... the great... er..... oz has spoken!!!"
Right said :cry:
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Post by Bigedmond »

sbohdan wrote:
DragonCooler wrote: hey i have some videos on 9/11 that show physically it coulnt have happened without help from explosives, and how it was a missle that hit the pentegon. some great videos!! I will have to see how i can get them out on FTP.
hey if it's not a joke: I wanna see those :shock:
Video is called In plane sight.
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Post by Dragon_Cooler »

Bigedmond wrote:
sbohdan wrote:
DragonCooler wrote: hey i have some videos on 9/11 that show physically it coulnt have happened without help from explosives, and how it was a missle that hit the pentegon. some great videos!! I will have to see how i can get them out on FTP.
hey if it's not a joke: I wanna see those :shock:
Video is called In plane sight.
that is one of them, the other one is like 2 or 3 hours long and throws physics and many interesting facts in there, it would be hard to share since its like over 300 meg for the 2 parts. but i will see what i can do here shortly.

here is a preview
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ju ... lusion.htm






edit// i will try and get hose videos up this weekend!!
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Post by sbohdan »

holly cow! I just downloaded and seen the documentary video "in plain sight" and am shocked :shock: . I have a proof now that:

-it wasn't commercial planes that hit the towers on 9/11 but military aircrafts with bombs attached.
-it wasn't even a plain that hit the pentagon but a missile
-that the 2 towers were brought down by a controlled demolition and not the planes which just prowes to me the involvement of the US government and points a blaming finger at them for the deaths of all those poeople (office workers, firefighters and cops trying to help)

I allways had the gut feeling that something was wrong here. very, very wrong. I found it was just to convenient to the US government what happened on 9/11. they were able to wage wars on countries thay otherwise couldn't attack, take away your rights one by one changing the US into a military, police state and if anyone was protesting it was enough to snatch the best excuse ever: the 9/11 attacks and they could do anything they wanted. actually those 3500 lives seem like a bargain to sacrifice, compared to the tens of thousands sent to their deaths in wars for other fishy purposes (vietnam and other US led wars). but don't even listen to me: download or get the video and see for yourself! any P2P should have it.
after seeing all that there are other questions the video wasn't even trying to explain:

-where are the real plaines that supposedly crashed but really didn't?
-where are the passengers of those plaines?
-what is the outcome of all this? 'cause it's plain to me that we are still in a middle of a certain plan. I have no idea what is it but I know just by comparing the state of the world now to what it was before that it will be very bad for everyone living in the US and eventually to the whole world.
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Post by sbohdan »

I'm just reading this and am speachless:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/de ... ociety.htm
Senate bill 742 in Oregon which was slimly defeated by just three votes would have classified terrorism as a plethora of completely unrelated actions. Downloading music, blocking traffic, writing a hot check or any form of protest. All these would be punishable by life in prison unless you agreed to attend a "forest labor camp" for 25 years of enforced labor.

These are actual bills being drawn up by our supposed representatives in government.

Does this sound like a sick joke? Yes, but the bill is real and it nearly passed.

Not even Communist China or Stalinist North Korea put people in labor camps for writing a hot check but this was actually debated in the 'land of the free'.
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