Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protesters

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Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protesters

Post by Apoptosis » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:15 am


The Occupy Wall Street protesters are complaining about everything from corporations to having to repay student loans. Is America the victim of its own success? Have we created a generation of self-entitled cry babies? Is it time to make these people spend three and half days in the woods so that they can appreciate what capitalism has given them? Find out.
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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by bubba » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:01 pm

Think the Occupy people are like Whittle sad, people that have grown up in a time of economic boom, and never really been broke. Promised many things, and didn't get squat.

Funny how they all knock big corporations, but all ranting using iPads, iPhones, Andriod stuff.... crap sold by the people they hate.

Some have no clue NOT ONE how economics work. Like the first guy in this video..



Hell the tools that occupied DC were offered jobs by headhunters, and had every ecuse in the world as to why they wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't take the job. Only one guy seemed really interested in the jobs...

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by vbironchef » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:14 pm

The one thing that was not mentioned was the United States government. I think the point he was trying to make is missed because our tax dollars go places who knows where. Our, the U.S. debt, yesterday went over 15 trillion dollars. That averages to something like 175 thousand dollars per person, man, women and child that lives in the U.S. Yea, like we can pay that back! That's just what we are told. I do feel for the college grads that on average are 25 thousand dollars in debt after graduation. There is nothing worse than a creditor calling all hours of the day asking for a payment, sometimes 3 to 4 times a day! I have been there and it is not a good feeling.

He does not mention the fact that his generation has filed for foreclosure in record numbers and how many college grads have to move back in with their parents just to get by. Just the State of California is raising its tuition by like 500.00 dollars a year because the unemployment rate is at 12%. That's 2 billion dollars that the state has to cut because of the lack of revenue. The California government is using the students as a A.T.M. in order to curb spending.

I don't know why this guy just didn't come out and say that everyone that graduates high school must go into the military for 2 years. If he feels like the U.S. is getting soft than I Suggest that he goes to boot camp and let's see if he does change his tune. If you want to help the students and the economy, than a two year stint in the military and the students college loan would be paid off after a good conduct award is awarded to them. They would have earned it by then!

What really ticks me off is that a contract is a contract that should be honored and not be changed no matter what. It's like making a bet and you change your mind after you lose and ask for your money back.

Edit: If a company fails so be it. Don't save the company, give the money to the employees so they can get retrained.

Edit: I also feel that that anyone the completes two years in the military and graduates with a bachelor degree should be rewarded with a green card.

Edit: I hear that California is planning a high speed rail (railroad) from S.F to L.A.. Don't be fooled by the idea. It is a way to pump money into CA. to avoid bankruptcy. If this was going to make a profit then it would have been done with private money or investors.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by churst1 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:24 am

wow, LOL.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by vbironchef » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:15 pm

churst1, what's so funny about people that are more educated, and over qualified not willing to work for minimum wage?

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by Skippman » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:04 pm

Nate,

I need to thank you for turning me on to Afterburner! I've never seen someone so clearly articulate everything I've been feeling but couldn't put into words.

The bottom line is, you don't work, you don't eat. Period. Whatever happened to aspiring to BE the big man himself? To working your way up to the top or creating your own success? My dad has an expression that "Luck is where hard work meets opportunity." I'm inclined to agree with him.

We in the United States enjoy a level of abject comfort unheard of in the rest of human history and we take it for grated every day. Try living in Africa sometime where they don't even have sidewalks, parks, or even in most cases clean running water. Then come talk to me about how "unfair" your life is.


vbironchef, you mention Military Service. Do you know who PAYS for those people in the military? For their education via the Montgomery GI Bill? Us the tax payers. I gladly pay my share knowing that it goes to the men and women in uniform but your explanation falls into the same pit as everyone else’s. That the government can somehow solve financial issues. The government produces no goods, it can only tax those that are produced by others. As such, any money the government spends is de facto taken from it's citizens.

You mention California being in debt. That's failed socialism and a failed welfare state you're looking at. That's what happens when you pass legislature like The Dream Act. Illegal immigration is crippling California's economy and rather than stand up against it, they pander to it in the hopes of getting a few more votes. Because, in the end, who cares if the Titanic sinks as long as you're on the life raft.

The simple fact of the matter is this. People have no idea what work is anymore. Our service industry based economy as seen to that. When the hardest thing most people will have to do is mop floors, stock shelves, or work in a fast food joint how can we truly have an appreciation for the hard work that makes our standard of living possible. Mike Rowe has done more for our country than most politicians will ever do.

We need to end the disingenuous belief that Trade Schools are somehow inferior to colleges. We need mechanics, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, people with actual useable appreciable skills. That's the point I think Bill Whittle was making in his video.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by vbironchef » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Skippman, The people in the Military pay taxes too. When I was in the Coast Guard for 8 years I did not have the G.I. bill. It was called something like the veteran something or something. I would put in one dollar and the government would put in one or two. Funny thing is when I went to use the money, it added up to 12,500 dollars. Well I went to a private college called the Culinary Institute of America for cooking. The problem was that the college wanted all the money up front and the V.A. would only give out monthly checks. So I had to work when I was in college and basically the V.A. just paid for my dorm room and nothing else. When I graduated I was 15 thousand dollars in debt. No job and the ones I could find were offering 7 dollars a hour. Try to pay back a student loan and find a place to live and keep a car working. Skippman, it's not just CA that is in trouble, many counties in the U.S. are having difficulty paying their debts to pensioners and some counties are going bankrupt leaving the pensioners without much, maybe 1/2 of what they were promised. I do respect your point of view though. :)

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by omegadoom13 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:46 am

I'm wondering how so many companies pay $0 in taxes. Where are my tax loopholes? :lol:

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by Skippman » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:06 am

omegadoom13 wrote:I'm wondering how so many companies pay $0 in taxes. Where are my tax loopholes? :lol:

That right there is a major reason I'm a fan of the flat tax strategy being proposed by people like Herman Cain and Ron Paul. The idea of a flat tax appeals to me both emotionally (no ones paying less than me) and intellectually (there's no exceptions for anyone, period). But of course people will say that bigger companies and richer people need to pay more not realizing or, actually, caring that 9% on $1,000,000 is far greater than 9% on $100,000.

vbironchef, I'm interested to know. Did you actually look into what kinds of jobs you'd be able to get fresh out of culinary school before you enrolled? I know many people who've gone that route only to find employment at hospitals or chains like the Macaroni Grill. I'm not disparaging the skill involved in being a chef at all as I know how hard and outright demanding the work is. Just curious if you discovered your employment oppritunities only AFTER you'd earned your degree. As for how your tuition re-imbursement worked that's horrible. I wasn't aware schools did that anymore and I'm totally shocked that they had no special accommodations for veterans!

I myself was disqualified from military service all three times I applied for physical reasons. My dream was to be a career Army helicopter pilot. Instead, I've worked my way into AT&T where I now make a comfortable living. I'm actually getting ready to finish my Associates of Arts and transfer those credits to University of Central Missouri where I plan to major in Disaster and Crisis Management with the hopes of working for FEMA.

I get the undercurrent of frustration we’re all experiencing right now. And I’m not defending corporate greed. I actually supported the OWS movement when they first started, but when people started demanding their tuition be forgiven I lost my mind. You see, I worked two jobs to pay for my school and attended classes full time at the same time. I didn’t take out a loan. Days working for Computer Renaissance and nights doing Y2K system updates for Bank of America as an IBM subcontractor all whilst attending classes. My GPA averaged about 2.8 due to my getting an average of 5 hours sleep a day. So I get working hard to get what you want. But I resent the implication that others get a “free ride” when I busted my ass to get where I am. I also resent the implication that I somehow earned what I have unjustly and as such “owe it” to someone else.

You made mention in passing in my build thread about how “I could afford it”. I let that pass as honestly we don’t really know each other. But for the record, I do work full time and am paying my way through school. My company does give me some measure of tuition reimbursement but that does not cover everything. That means buying text books and paying fees. I maintain a strict policy of only buying luxury items I can pay cash for. So I save up for them. This way if god forbid I lost my job I’d still have my savings to fall back on.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by vbironchef » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:46 am

Skippman, That was a long time ago back in 1990. I also don't use credit cards. Please send me a PM or e-mail so I can buy you this SSD if you would like. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820167042 Just need your address.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by Skippman » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:57 am

I appreciate the sentement. The point of my statement wasn't the generate sympathy but to show that 1, I understand the situation from a personal experience standpoint. And 2, to kind of explain how I manage my resources and why something that some people would just spend money on to me may not be worth the cost.

My co-workers been giving me a hard time about the building a rig thing. I know I'm taking forever by most peoples standards. Mostly it's been waiting for the damn motherboard to come back in stock. I should have just bought an ASUS and been done with it rather than wait for the eVGA Z68 FTW to come back in stock (should be here Friday). As soon as it's back in stock I'm ordering all my parts. And, if they happen to have a sale on SSD's for Black Friday, I'll add one to the cart. :)

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by vbironchef » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:02 am

8) I meant no disrespect.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by hark » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:24 am

I understand where you're coming from, Skippman, but resentment is a dangerous thing. Those asking for forgiveness of student debt have been trapped into taking out loans that they cannot repay, especially since they are unable to get a job in the increasingly demanding and competitive job market. Protests such as these spring up in times of desperation. Who actually wants to camp out in the cold and get paid nothing, protesting with no guarantee of change? They're doing this because they do not see any other solution. You shouldn't have had to bust your ass just to make a living. Why call out those supposedly lazy kids when there are these corporate CEOs dodging taxes, shipping our jobs overseas, making stupid decisions that brought us to this mess in the first place, and rewarding themselves with multi-million dollar bonuses? If you're going after somebody, go after the lazy asses sitting on billions of dollars rather than the average person just trying to make a living.

As for the flat tax, it's a terrible idea. It will result in the poor paying more tax and the rich paying less tax overall. Taking $10 from someone who has $100 in total is a lot more damaging than taking $1,000,000 from someone who has $1,000,000,000 in total. While the raw numbers appear to favour the poor person (what, they only had to pay $10 while that other guy paid $1,000,000?!??!), the poor person's life style is actually damaged far more. Nobody becomes a CEO on their own. They also have to use the resources of the community and step on others to get there. The more you are given by society, the more you owe back, whether you get that money through welfare checks or by exploiting workers in foreign countries.

The rich do not need your protection or help in assaulting the disadvantaged. People like the Koch brothers pour millions into protecting their wealth. They laugh at people like you who are misdirecting their frustrations at other disadvantaged individuals. If the trends continue as they are, we will slip back into feudalism.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by Skippman » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:42 am

Hawk wrote:You shouldn't have had to bust your ass just to make a living.
And THAT is something I completely, 100% disagree with. I bust my ass every day. True I'm not shoveling coal or mopping toilets but I work as hard as I can to the best of my ability every day. If I didn't, I'd expect to be replaced by someone who will/can.
Hawk wrote:The rich do not need your protection or help in assaulting the disadvantaged. People like the Koch brothers pour millions into protecting their wealth. They laugh at people like you who are misdirecting their frustrations at other disadvantaged individuals. If the trends continue as they are, we will slip back into feudalism.
I'm not protecting the rich. I'm protecting MYSELF. I want to keep everything I've worked hard, played by the rules, and saved to have. Because I "DIDNT" take out student loans but manage to make a good living I'm somehow obligated to pay back their debt? That's, pardon my French, ******* lunacy. But then again, what do I know. It's becoming more obvious by the day that we're in for our own Red October.

There's a terrific quote by Robert Heinlein from Time Enough for Love that I can't find right now but I'll paraphrase. "We knew we were in trouble when politicians actively campaigned that they'd see to it all citizens were above middle class and no one laughed."

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by bubba » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:27 pm

I work hard for what I have, as little and crappy as it is, but its my crap.

I'll be dammed if someone that makes less than me is going to tell me that I have to give them my stuff. F*** THAT.

As for the loans, I went to school, I set down and read the loan. I understood what I was required to pay back. I knowingly took a service, I must pay for it.

Ok, OWS wants loan forgiveness. Where does it stop? houses? cars? everyone needs a house and a car. So I go buy a million dollar home and a Ferrari because I want one, but since I cant make the payments the government should raise taxes on those to can so I can set on my ass to keep them? no, I should work harder or sell the stuff to someone who can afford it.

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. Then you get to the point no one wants to do anything because soon as you get too much someone comes along and takes it.

Contrary to popular belief you can make a nice living without a 4 year college degree. It will require more effort, little elbow grease, and you to get dirty. Problem with a lot of people now, no one wants to do any work that requires anymore effort than typing because they feel its beneath them.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by hark » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:07 pm

That's the problem with your thinking, they're not taking YOUR money. If you enjoy busting your ass to barely make a living while millionaires and billionaires make more millions and billions off of you, then that's your prerogative. However, others imagine a world where everyone can make a decent living without killing themselves. You are essentially a slave, barely making a living, while your slave owner makes millions and billions off your back. If you're afraid of people taking your money, direct your fear towards the rich. As we are discussing this issue, the rich are shipping our jobs to foreign countries, then turning around and raising prices here. At the same time, they take advantage of dozens of loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of taxes on their enormous wealth.

Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with working hard. These students are working hard, but they're saddled with debt. These loans are specifically designed to extort as much money as possible. They're trapped. Now what you're doing is helping out the slave owners and whipping these disadvantaged people, telling them to work even harder. Although you may not be consciously protecting the rich, you're definitely diverting attention away from their wrongdoings by focusing so much on people fighting for a better life.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by vbironchef » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:18 pm

+1 hark.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by Skippman » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:27 pm

"Slave"

I'm no slave. I'm free to quit any time I want. Sell all my possessions and leave this city, this state, hell even this country. I'm free to start my own business. But I guess that would make me the slave master at that point. Of course, then I'm a slave to the bank.

Your argument is disingenuous. I would like to one day be one of those millionaires. It may take years of hard work, saving, and wise investing to get there but I hold out hope that I can make it because of our capitalistic society. You’re absolutely right, no one gets anywhere on their own. There are no entirely “self-made” men.

The problem with your logic is the lines are arbitrary between the haves and the have-not’s. A flat tax would eliminate those lines. I’m even in favor of a cut off for those who make below a specific wage, say $20,000 a year as I’ve mentioned before. But it feels like more and more people just want to basically steal from the rich and call it “social justice”. What’s the point of working for anything, saving, and passing it forward to your kids if once you hit a certain cash value anything you make over it gets taken and given to someone else? I can think of no quicker way to drive wealth out of our country than to threaten to take it.

If I had billions of dollars or even millions I’d be moving it out of US currency, into precious metals, and shipping it out of the country as fast as humanly possible. Anything else seems to spell financial suicide.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by vbironchef » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:52 pm

Skippman, that's a bad idea. I hope you speak Chinese. I think you should be happy that you are not in debt. I personally have never filed for bankruptcy and have paid back my student loan. My truck is paid off and I have zero debt with no credit cards. I don't even have a mortgage anymore. So I am sitting in a pretty good place right now. That does not mean it can't change in a heartbeat! No job, or I get sick. Or I wake up one day and instead of having dollars in my bank account it's called something else. Maybe the Yuan? Any case, I wake up and the dollar is worth nothing.

Edit: Just read this: http://etfdailynews.com/2011/11/22/amer ... ree-lyscy/ We as Americans really do need to live within our means. We have to pay down our debt.

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Re: Interesting Thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street protester

Post by bubba » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:24 pm

hark wrote:That's the problem with your thinking, they're not taking YOUR money. If you enjoy busting your ass to barely make a living while millionaires and billionaires make more millions and billions off of you, then that's your prerogative. However, others imagine a world where everyone can make a decent living without killing themselves. You are essentially a slave, barely making a living, while your slave owner makes millions and billions off your back. If you're afraid of people taking your money, direct your fear towards the rich. As we are discussing this issue, the rich are shipping our jobs to foreign countries, then turning around and raising prices here. At the same time, they take advantage of dozens of loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of taxes on their enormous wealth.
I work not only for my day job as an IT guy, I write reviews, I help with family farm, and my step-dads gunsmith business learning the trade.

By raising taxes because I hit a magic number that some lazy SOB has decided is too much money for one person to have, then yeah, they are taking my money that intern would be used to get me and my family stuff.

So lets say i build up my gun shop, I employ people, I work my tail off as well as those who work for me. I get to where my cut clears the magic $500k/year mark (500K and up is the 1%). I'm supposed to just give that away.. blow me.

nothing is easy. if it was everyone would do it. want something fight for it. This nonsense that people are entitled to what ever because they are there. Nope. Don't think so.

Jobs are going to foreign countries for simple reasons. Its cheap. Why is it cheap, less regulations, more workers willing to work for less because there is more people than jobs. That's where more "slave" labor is, and if that is the case and you don't want to support that type of business, then don't buy anything with electronics in it.

As for people that are coming here illegally, well that's because they know there are jobs here. The jobs they are getting, labor. Something that requires a person to get up out of a chair and put a little effort into something. Some of those OWS people, set around bitching they cant find a job, apparently there are jobs to be had because if we didn't we wouldn't have an illegal migration issue that we have.
hark wrote:Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with working hard. These students are working hard, but they're saddled with debt. These loans are specifically designed to extort as much money as possible. They're trapped. Now what you're doing is helping out the slave owners and whipping these disadvantaged people, telling them to work even harder. Although you may not be consciously protecting the rich, you're definitely diverting attention away from their wrongdoings by focusing so much on people fighting for a better life.
So, I'm working hard, and have two years left on my student loan (finished in '97). Who said they have to work in the field they went to school for? I went for engineering, haven't done that for almost 5 years now. I have worked everything from floor sweeper to assembly line to machinist to IT guy. I have never taken a dime from unemployment or state aid. Why? If I can't afford it, I don't buy it, and yes I know what its like to broke and struggle.

How are the loans designed to extort money? They are better than most credit cards and home loans, they have a fixed rate. If they signed up for a non-fixed private loan, that's their fault. Should have got a job and went to community college or technical school and learned a skilled trade and done that for a couple years first. No one put a gun to their head and "go to college or die". I have several friends that have NEVER stepped one foot in a college. Make a rather nice living in a building trades, as machinists, and mechanics. Some run their own business and have people work for them. yeah they work hard for what they have, but they do it doing stuff that I bet any of those OWS tools would "oh I can't do that"




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