H.R. 1022: Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protect

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Skippman
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Post by Skippman » Thu May 10, 2007 9:40 am

This will be the last I probably post in this thread as this will quickly degrade into a flame war.


I totally oppose your idea of a national database for medical conditions as that is a violation of my personal privacy. It's bad enough I have to register to own a pistol, go through a background check, wait 10 days, and have pay the state a fee for the privilage of owning a pistol. If a judge doesn't have the right to my medical records why does the state? Ever heard of doctor/patient confidentiality?

People who were abdicated mentally incompetant by the state cannot legally own a gun in the first place. Your proposed idea does a nice job of absolving the owner of any responsiblity and placing that responsibilty on the state. The bottom line, you purchase a gun and use it illegally you're guilty of a crime regardless of whatever medication you're supposed to be on. You cannot blame medication for your actions. Murder is illegal, regardless of the motivation or cause.

Also, please do not use the term AR for assult rifle as AR refers to a specific type and make of assualt rifle, the AR-15/M-16A2

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Post by stopthekilling77 » Thu May 10, 2007 11:15 am

:sigh:

if only these things were easier to work through.

our rights and freedoms just seem to be moot points now, and adding onto that is an over-sensitive country where meshing freedoms and rationale take a second seat to stupidity and the mindset that the only way to make everything work is to box everything up... its a sad state we're in.
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Post by Xanlamin » Thu May 10, 2007 3:46 pm

Skippman wrote: I totally oppose your idea of a national database for medical conditions as that is a violation of my personal privacy. If a judge doesn't have the right to my medical records why does the state? Ever heard of doctor/patient confidentiality?
The database already exist, it is not updated like it should be, and you may want to look at the laws again cause pending on the case a judge DOES have access to your medical records.
Skippman wrote: People who were abdicated mentally incompetant by the state cannot legally own a gun in the first place. Your proposed idea does a nice job of absolving the owner of any responsiblity and placing that responsibilty on the state. The bottom line, you purchase a gun and use it illegally you're guilty of a crime regardless of whatever medication you're supposed to be on. You cannot blame medication for your actions. Murder is illegal, regardless of the motivation or cause.
Reread my statement, I said that if a person should be entered into the database and is not then there doctor should be held responsiable right along with the person who commited the crime, it is the doctors responsiablity to enter in the information as it has always been.

Never said it was the cause of the medication, I said that even with medication my daughter has tendancies to show alot of anger and that even on meds she is capable of snapping...please read in full before criticising.
Skippman wrote: Also, please do not use the term AR for assult rifle as AR refers to a specific type and make of assualt rifle, the AR-15/M-16A2
You are correct, even though your comment on this was not directed to me. The "AR" is nothing more than a model number that has been around for years and does not signify a weapon as Automatic Rifle, as the civilian models are not full auto, only semi and single shot.

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Post by Skippman » Thu May 10, 2007 4:38 pm

Can you point me to this particular database to which you refer? Does it have a name?

As for your daughter, I don't know her. Nor was I blaming her medication for either her condition, or the condition of anyone commiting the crime. My point was that murder is murder regardless of ones mindset or chemical dependency at that time.

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Post by Xanlamin » Thu May 10, 2007 6:47 pm

Read this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10214838/

I think you will change your views after you read it.

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Post by Cypher » Thu May 10, 2007 10:53 pm

As for a database infringing on your privacy, when it comes to Firearms, that privacy in the world today should be invaded to make sure that the person wanting to purchase the firearm is sane, and has no medical problems to speak off that would tempt that person to cause harm to another person.

I'm all for people owning firearms, depending on what they're used for.

This bill I highly doubt will lower crime rates to any degree, if someone wants to get a hold of a firearm, they will. How many murders are committed with registered firearms these days? unregistered?

I do agree that the general public shouldn't be allowed to own fully automatic weapons though. I would also limit an individual on how many weapons they can own. Every year they should have to renew their permit to carry firearms, and during that they should have to produce each firearm to their name to make sure that none arn't "missing (e.g. some kid gives a guy $500 for a handgun).
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Post by Xanlamin » Thu May 10, 2007 11:14 pm

The medical aspect that would be entered into this database should only have to state wether the person is in there right mind enough to own a firearm, nothing of the persons condition would need to be released, only that they are under a doctors care and should not be allowed to own a firearm cause they are capable of causeing harm to others or themselves....simple...no rights are violated.

Persons name, address, age, doctor, reason....very very simple

By signing the paperwork to get a firearm gives the seller permission to pull your information.

And I agree with the need to actually show the firearms when you renew your permit. That shows that your not buying the weapons, filing off the serial number and selling them.

There are ways congress can get things done and get the desired results but the way there working on now with this bill....just won't do it, they need to perfect already standing implementations and get them working 100% and not have a crap load of half ass'ed programs that are not working.

By the way...as far as changing to constitution....

I think there should be some changes, yeah it says that we have the right to bare arms, it also stats we have the right to kill a Brit....anyone here British? can I get your address?....get my point?????

Some changes do need to be made to it, the constitution is a dated piece of work and an out-of-date one at that, things need to be updated to flow with the times or else they dont meen a thing.

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Post by Skippman » Fri May 11, 2007 7:11 am

Xanlamin wrote:There are ways congress can get things done and get the desired results but the way there working on now with this bill....just won't do it, they need to perfect already standing implementations and get them working 100% and not have a crap load of half ass'ed programs that are not working.
On this we are in agreement. The Brady Bill was a joke.
Xanlamin wrote: By the way...as far as changing to constitution....

I think there should be some changes, yeah it says that we have the right to bare arms, it also stats we have the right to kill a Brit....anyone here British? can I get your address?....get my point?????
Would you care to show me where in our constitution is says you have the right to kill anyone? I must have missed that in my civics class. It's possible there was a part in the Decleration of Independance that may have said something to that effect, I've not read that in quite some time. But as for condoned murder, that is not in any version of the constitution I've read.

As for the carry permit, what do you THINK is involved? I have to renew every three years at a cost of $115. I admit it's not year to year, but I've yet to hear of anyone in Missouri who has a CCW using it to commit a murder in conditions other than self defense.

I understand that I'm in the minority here on this issue. And that's ok, I'm accustomed to that in the circles I travel in. I believe whole heartedly in personal responsibility. It seems in todays society rather than accept responsibility for our actions we look for someone to absolve us of it. Blaming the government for the actions of the individual is easy, it provides someone to blame. Save me from myself as it were.

The problem with guns however is there is a stigma to them that will never go away. I wonder how many mentally impaired individuals hold drivers licenses. Do they have to renew every year? Is there a limit to how many cars you can own? It's every bit as easy to misuse an automobile as it is a gun, and a car will cause much more damage than even the heaviest of automatic weapons.

I think our laws on this issue are sufficent. I think the enforcement of those laws is probably lacking however. You can pass as much "feel good" legislation as you want, but it will mean nothing if it's not enforced. I'm sorry to read about those murders you linked to, and I agree they were a tragedy. But I wonder how many people are killed by mentally impared people who crashed thier cars.

As for fully automatic weapons, it's a moot point. You have to possess a Federal Firearms License from the ATF, keep a running book, and only use them on ranges that are built for them or private land. They're very heavily controlled. I myself own 10 guns of various types, have been a range master at a rifle range, have a CCW, and practice regularly to ensure that while carrying I am safe. Even with all of that, I cannot own an automatic weapon as I don't possess a FFL nor do I have the extra $500+ a year it costs to have one.

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Post by DMB2000uk » Fri May 11, 2007 7:32 am

Shall we just agree to disagree here guys?

Even if there are better gun laws in place people who want to use them will get hold of them somehow. We don't have a right to carry here in the UK, but we still have gun crime and people getting shot.

At the end of the day all you can do to change legislation that is being proposed that you don't like is petition against it (or whatever other system(s )you have in America).

Everyone has an opinion, and they are entitled to it, it would be nice if everyone could see things from the same angle, but that hardly ever happens. So stop trying to convince each other that your side is the right for whatever reason, and just agree that the government is incompetent. :mrgreen:

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Post by Sporg » Fri May 11, 2007 7:53 am

I think that most of us, at some point in our lives, are probably not in the right frame of mind to have a weapon. Think back to when you were at your angriest or saddest point. I would also make a bold statement that most of us are able to fight through those feelings and not go on a murder spree.

A weapon can be anything that you can use to do harm to someone else. Yes, it's probably a lot easier to use a semi-auto whatever. But the proper combination of common items and a little creativity can be very destructive if you know what you are doing (think Oklahoma City).

I have little to no sympathy for someone who robs an old lady, for someone who murders someone over twenty bucks in a wallet, and for someone who makes the mistake of entering my home at night. Do I care if they have mental issues? Absolutely not, all I know is that if someone is intending to do harm to my family, myself, or my property, then I will retaliate. I have the right to defend myself, and I refuse to be a helpless sheep. With that right comes the responsibility to be certain and responsible for my actions.

Arguing about a weapon being for hunting or sport is silly. A lot of hunting rifles began their lives as military weapons (if you want a list I'll have to dig when I get home, at work and a lot of sites are blocked).
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Post by Xanlamin » Fri May 11, 2007 8:02 am

Define "mentaly impaired" driver. And you would prolly be suprised on that as well. As with a drivers lic, I believe after you reach a certain age you must take both writen AND driving test once a year and after you reach another age you don't need to be behind the wheel of a car at all. Not to long ago a 95 year old women drove through a living room of a house here in St. Louis cause she passed out, fell asleep, misjudged or had a spell as they call it and killed a kid who was playing in his own front yard while she was on her way to a once every 2 year driving school.

Yes we have laws for drinking and driving which are much strickter than gun laws and people who are drunk kill more people than those with guns but I don't see them wanting to pass a law that bans cars...

Guns: More people who are classified as mentaly impaired and are under a doctors care have killed more people with guns than those of sane mind, those who are mentaly impaired are more opt to mass murder than just shoot a single person, Columbine, Virgina Tech...and many others.

Basicaly I am saying why ban the guns when it's the people doing the killing when you don't ban cars for the same reason.

As for the British ordeal...I am trying to find an original copy of where I seen it, can not remember if it was the constitution or what law I seen it on, but it was there, just like there is also still a law about it being ok to kill a morman, but thats neither here nor there...only the fact that some bills/laws/contitutions do need to be updated from time to time.

Yes a weapon is a weapon is a weapon, no matter what you use, and yes the governement is incompetent. Those of you who are for being able to own a firearm (as I am) I am sure would not mind extra steps involved to make it harder to get for those who should not have them to be in place. If I had to show my firearms each year to continue to have my permit I would not mind, if I had to bring in my empty shells to purchase more I would not mind, I would not mind having to go that extra mile because I am not out to use my firearm for it's unattended purpose. We all have our own views on alot of things and we all feel differently about how things should or should not be but thats life I guess and it allowes for good debates on alot of subjects. This topic had the potiential to get way out of control but I did not see it go in that direction, and things where able to be said without things having to be edited...I give cudos for all that spoke up about there views here for keeping it sane.

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Post by Apoptosis » Fri May 11, 2007 8:25 am

I'm going to lock this thread if it keeps going in this direction... Feel free to talk it up, but please keep it clean and remember that no ones thoughts are wrong. We are the melting pot of the world and our diversity is what makes this country what it is and I don't know about you guys, but I'm proud to call the US my home.

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Post by Skippman » Fri May 11, 2007 4:38 pm

I am as well, and I meant no disrespect to anyone in this thread, on this board, or to anyone in life in general. I do not believe any of my comments reflected disrespect, which is why I placed On This Issue in bold.

I apologize if I offended anyone in this thread through inflammatory or hateful words directed at them in specific. But I stand by my perspective and personal views.

I agree to disagree.

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Post by stopthekilling77 » Fri May 11, 2007 5:02 pm

i kept out after it got bad
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Post by Alathald » Fri May 11, 2007 5:34 pm

I have stated my thoughts and pretty much got out. Everyone has submitted well thought out arguements and have shown they are not subscribing to a dogma. It is very close to degrading into a flame war and I'm suprised Nate didn't say something sooner. We all have a right to our own opinion and we all have for the most part stated our opinion along with facts to back up that opinion. Leave it at that and don't let this degrade into a flame war. I think this should be left open for now cause I'm interested in everyones opinion but not in reading a flame war. If you do post, try to either add something constructive or at least don't direct your post at something someone specific said (I know I was guilty of that in a few of my posts here and I apologize). This is a very hot subject and everyone seems to have good information, just don't use that information to attack others ideas.

Just my two cents... :drinkers:
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