My first OC, x2 5600+, need help with some questions.

[Calamar]

Hi!
After reading some guides of the ways to OC an amd and some tries I would like some help with some questions I've. First the computer:

AMD 5600+
Asus M2N-SLI deluxe
2GB Kingston HyperX 6400 (KHX6400D2LLK2/G2) 800Mhz 5-5-5-15 (it should be CL4 but at those timings I saw my first BSOD on winxp sp2)
2x Asus 8600GT
An old Enermax 651 (550W)
winXP sp2

What I've done:
Install ATItool, rivatune, Everest, OCCT, cpu Z, sandra XII, 3dmark06 and crysis.

After reading some guides first I put HT at 4x (800Mhz) and begun to increase HTT speed in 2Mhz steps running 2 times OCCT and every 8Mhz leaving the computer a day working (normal work, OCCT / Sandra XII tests, gaming (crysis), 3dmark06).

Now Its 3051,7 (14x) core, bus 218Mhz, Htlink 1089,9 (againt at 5x), memory at 436MHz. Al voltages are setup at Auto in the bios except VRAM its at 2,05 (2,00 its it nominal value).

Here are my questions:
0) Is this the correct way ot OC an AMD? increasing HTT speed?
1) What are the situations where CPU voltage should begin to be increased? I've got a problem with that, while CPU-Z says its at 1,264v everest say its at 1,4v. What its the good value?
2) How do I know If its a cpu voltage problem or a ram voltage problem?
3) Does it matter if HT raises the 1000MHz speed? I've read that thats the value that should not be traspassed.
4) It has happened me twice that the computer shuts down when Cool'n'quiet its enabled. Should I disable the cool'n'quiet feature once a frenquency has been tested?
5) Should I use another test to know if Its stable enough a configuration?
6) Based in your experience should I reduce f.e. CPU or RAM multipliers after reaching f.e. 220Mhz or its better to have a lower speed mainitaning higher RAM and CPU frequencies? I say based in your experience because I know that the CPU can handle 3,1-3,3GHz but I don't know if that Kingston memory can handle +900Mhz speed.

Thanks for your time and help!

P.S.: I'm asking for some help with SLI overclock in this topic: http://forums.legitreviews.com/about13546.html

[Methious]

Your going the right route takes time and effort to get it 24/7 stable.

In no particular order:

Disable cool and quiet during over clocking you want all the fans running at max (What CPU cooler do you have?)
When you reach an un-stable over clock then increase cpu voltage one notch and retest (if fail lower it one then)
Still unstable increase vdimm one notch retest (if fail lower it one then) might have to try different combos of voltage increase
Still unstable increase NB (north bridge) one notch restest (if fail lower it one)
Repeat until you hit over clock wall (on that board as you increase FSB speed NB heat will increase, if I remember mine right it had a passive cool pipe on the NB so that helps some, I use a ThermalRight 80MM north bridge cooler)
You increase ram/cpu voltage one or the other then you know which was under volt
I've seen HTT above 1000 but not recommended as it tends to cause instability random bsod
Occt is a good quick test, Run Orthos after Occt keep an eye on cpu temps with Core Temp or AMD Overdrive (On my board AMD over drive is most accurate temp but I have an AMD chip set)

I'd stick with the HTT/FSB over clock until I find the over clock wall, then back down one step (personal preference running at absolute top stresses parts)
After finding and recording the overclock settings (OC profile in Bios Tools if you have that feature pen and paper if you don't) then you can lower multiplier and re-do the over clock to see if you like that better, if you do lower the multiplier you may have to lower the ram multiplier, also since in that case your pushing the NB harder you might have to look at after market north bridge cooling.

Hope that helps each over clock is different so good luck and post final results!

[Calamar]

Thank you for your fast reply!

Cool'n'quiet its disabled during the overcloking tests/etc, but I reactivate it during the "test day".
I take note about all your appreciations.

0a) Now I'm running at 220 so HT (5x) its running at 1100Mhz should I turn it into 4x? I've runned an OCCT during 2h without problems and all games/applications worked fine.

About cooling... ...puff is complicate :D

Part of voltage control its cooled by the end of the pipe right?

The AMD is watercooled by an old block I used with an Athlon MP 1900+ (then a 2800+) hehehe. Yes it has been working since 2002 when I bought that computer. Anyway the AMD never reaches more than 48ºC (today 48º running at 3080MHz after 2h of OCCT, 34º IDLE.). Its a quite safe temperature isn't it?

For me the idea of OC its think that this computer must live the time to buy another one, what I will do with it if I buy a new one in 12 or 24 months? And of course to have a faster computer paying less. If I begin to spend € in better cooling systems, ram coolings, etc. Does a 5 or 10% or 15% of performance increase deserve a 100€-150€ extra (CPU cooling, voltage cooling, NB cooling, extra fans, etc.)? I can buy a non OC computer with those 100€-150€.
Unless you have 3000 or 3500€ and you want the faster computer you can buy, which means, extra cooling stuff and hardcore OC. And I don't have them

BTW can someone link a good memory guide to understand the meaning of timmings, etc. please? for beginners

[Methious]

48C full load isn't bad for that chip, I try and stay under 50C no matter what AMD says.

If it's running stable at 1100 HTT I'd leave it, if it goes unstable I'd lower it. I was more talking NB chip heat. I had the M2N SLI deluxe and I have a M2N-E both same chip set, same NB heat pipe. On both I hit the OC wall because of NB over heating not CPU limitations or CPU heat. I hit the wall on both at 223 HTT/FSB. Which means your probably close to the max with out a little more cooling.

If it gets to that point, then a $4 fan on top of the existing heat pipe (a NB cheapie fan from scythe) helps. Small investment but it's up to each to decide if they want to spend the extra. I can tell you my M2N-E lasted 4 months at 220 HTT and it's on the way back from ASUS because of NB over heating. When it gets back I already have the fan for it.

[Zertz]

I hit the wall on both at 223 HTT/FSB.

Did you update the BIOS? One of the updates fixed that, since then my M2N-E can reach around 320Mhz.

[Methious]

I updated the bios before I sent it in RMA when it died, I think there was some thing wrong out of the box with the old one. Even on a Corsair 620w rock solid PSU I was seeing voltage fluctuation's in the un-called for range. I've never had trouble with any AMD rig achieving a moderate stable OC, the old board gave me fits so I ran it stock. (well close to stock 220 FSB/HTT)

The new board came back from Asus Friday so I built it with a x2 4200 (2.2 ghz) I had laying around spare, they'd updated the bios at the repair facility to the same bios I had on the old board and if the old one had run like this one does I'd probably still be using it. I dropped the multiplier down from stock 11x to 10x moved FSB up to 250, bumped the vcore one notch and in 10 minutes (not including testing time) had it stable @ 2.5. For some reason using the same cpu cooler same cpu it idles at 26C loads at 41C, on the old board 47-48 load, same case, same fans the only change was the board. This time it's got a small fan on the NB cooler (installed after the OC) just to be safe. Waiting on a NB cooler I ordered for the new M3A before I push it any, no cool pipe on it. Figured I might as well get a honkin NB cooler so I got the ThermalRight 80MM fan NB cooler coming. That way the CPU cooler and NB cooler match, and can move to any new build (lga 775/am2(+) universal).

[Calamar]

hi again!
Now I'm running at 224Mhz (14x 3135MHz CPU) 4x HT, and the memory CPU/9 (348x2=696MHz @ 1,9v). I have a problem. While I put a 13x for the CPU in the BIOS configuration windows says I'm running 14x. I don't want to push it further before reducing the CPU multiplier. Why windows runs it at 14x?
Its to risky to try to run the memory I have at 896MHz (CPU/7)? Usually its better to have a higher FSB bus than a higher CPU/Memory?. I know there is a point which its better to see the results, but maybe components run less stressed with lower multipliers.

[Methious]

Is it a locked multiplier CPU? What's the stock multiplier when you run it with out tweaking? I know the Black Box edition AMD are unlocked multiplier but I don't know if yours is black box.

[Calamar]

Its not a black box edition. Hmm the fact is that when I tried to touch that with nvidia controls in my previous windows installation I was able to change it. Also I can change it via BIOS (its says its 13x) but CPU-Z says its 14x, If it the CPU was blocked did BIOS let me change the multiplier or would be a locked control? The defalut its 14x (2800Mhz --> X2 5600+).

[Methious]

If it's not black box I'm pretty sure it's locked. Depends on the bios if it'll let you attempt to change it. If it's locked bios will just set it back to the default 14x. I could change my x2 3800 (locked) and x2 4200 (locked) with Ntune but when I used bios it'd default back to the stock multiplier. My last 3 boards have been Asus, they'd let me change the default multiplier on locked multiplier cpu's but default back to stock on reboot. That's probably what your seeing.

[kenc51]

You can only lower the multi on standard cpu's, hence why they are called "locked".
You can't increase it using the bios or any software.
Some software that uses the windows kernel to read cpu speed will report it has changed but if you use CPUZ (which reads the cpu itself) it will show nothing has changed at all.

[Calamar]

You can only lower the multi on standard cpu's, hence why they are called "locked".
You can't increase it using the bios or any software.
Some software that uses the windows kernel to read cpu speed will report it has changed but if you use CPUZ (which reads the cpu itself) it will show nothing has changed at all.

Thats what I want lower it. The its strange the comment made by methious because if cool'n'quiet can lower the CPU multiplier why I can't?
I use CPU-Z to read speeds/multipliers.
The problem is, that I set 13x (instead of 14x) in the BIOS, and when I run CPU-Z in windows It says its 14x, so I presume its actually 14x. If I turn ON cool'n'quiet and I look at CPU-Z it changes to 5x so the problem must be between the BIOS and CPU-Z.

[kenc51]

You can only lower the multi on standard cpu's, hence why they are called "locked".
You can't increase it using the bios or any software.
Some software that uses the windows kernel to read cpu speed will report it has changed but if you use CPUZ (which reads the cpu itself) it will show nothing has changed at all.

Thats what I want lower it. The its strange the comment made by methious because if cool'n'quiet can lower the CPU multiplier why I can't?
I use CPU-Z to read speeds/multipliers.
The problem is, that I set 13x (instead of 14x) in the BIOS, and when I run CPU-Z in windows It says its 14x, so I presume its actually 14x. If I turn ON cool'n'quiet and I look at CPU-Z it changes to 5x so the problem must be between the BIOS and CPU-Z.

Have you updated the bios to the latest version?

[Methious]

Thanks Ken that was what I meant was you can't raise it beyond default.

[Calamar]

You can only lower the multi on standard cpu's, hence why they are called "locked".
You can't increase it using the bios or any software.
Some software that uses the windows kernel to read cpu speed will report it has changed but if you use CPUZ (which reads the cpu itself) it will show nothing has changed at all.

Thats what I want lower it. The its strange the comment made by methious because if cool'n'quiet can lower the CPU multiplier why I can't?
I use CPU-Z to read speeds/multipliers.
The problem is, that I set 13x (instead of 14x) in the BIOS, and when I run CPU-Z in windows It says its 14x, so I presume its actually 14x. If I turn ON cool'n'quiet and I look at CPU-Z it changes to 5x so the problem must be between the BIOS and CPU-Z.

Have you updated the bios to the latest version?

Hi,
After exams I resumed my OC adventure. I've tried 225Mhz changing a little the fan positions. I'm still having the same problem. I would like to reduce CPU multiplier before pushing up the bus speed.
Yes I have 1302 bios version which allows me to reduce cpu multiplier 14, 13, 12, etc. But when I reach windows, pop, 14x, again. Can everest /riva tuner or another tool change cpu multiplier during windows startup?
System looks stable at 225Mhz (except for another thing I'll mention in the graphic topic) but I don't know how risky is to put the 2800Mhz core to more than 3150Mhz. Which are the usual "tops" of a 5600+ die? I mean Frequency:Temperature. It is save tu run it faster at about 48ºC?

BTW thanks for all your replies.

[Methious]

As long as it doesn't go above 48C full load for say an hour or two shouldn't be a big deal. 2.8 to 3.2 isn't a kill the chip over clock. It's a good reasonable over clock that should be stable and still let the chip have good longevity.

Just make sure the temps stay in that range, and give the heat sink and fan a good dust off once a month or so.

[Calamar]

Hi again ,
after some improvements in the airflow of the case I've reduced a lot all components temperature, so I've continued raising the clock speed.


Now CPU only reaches 46ºC after 2 or more hours of OCCT. (45º-46º)

I'm worried about the different temperature of the cores, is that normal?

What programs do you usally use to check the improvements of speed due to oc?,
I only use 3dmark test as to see performance/clockspeed.

While I'm writting this I'm running OCCT at LOW priority to see if 227Mhz of HT is stable

I only have this numbers for the cpu, based on 3dmark CPU score:
HT@200Mhz= 2133
HT@218Mhz=2345
HT@225Mhz=2433

My last 3dmark score with my poor and so discused* 8600GT was 8690 and now that are about 10º cooler I'll push them too.

*: http://forums.legitreviews.com/about13546.html

I'm putting all in excel to see the performance ratio and it fits to a linear increase, so I'll keep pushing it this way.

[Calamar]

Final results. Thats all I can get (well it can go until 259 but the cpu needs a lot more voltage) stabe:

Cpu: 3328 Mhz (13x), HTT: 256 Mhz (HT at 4x), Memory (ddr800): 475,5 Mhz Max temp 51ºC

Voltages: 1,500 V for the core, 2,25 V for the memory, and for the advanced tab I changed it into 1,4/1,5/1,4/1,55/disabled

The graphic cards: 621/824 Max temp 68ºC

the temperature in the room (close to the case) is about 23ºC (22,7-23,4)

I want to point out two things:

The way to overclock AMDs is very well explained in a guide someone linked here made by nvidia an its 590 chip.

Also to reduce the multiplier in M2N-SLI deluxe you must disable C'n'C in the bios.

Some results:











The machine:





Its a 2002 Lian Li PC-70 case, the pump (eheim), the block (??) and the radiator (??) are also from 2002 :D from my old Dual 1900 MP+ system . And it is so the enermax power supply. All that stuff cost me a lot, but hey, 6 years and working. I think its cheap now :D

All three fans are EMBPAPST 120mm 1800rpm 2GLL models there is a fourth fan (not a papst, that can be seen in the external part of the radiator) which I used to see if I was able to drop a little cpu temp, but it looks like its a block limitation (or pump) but not because of the radiator airflow.

[DMB2000uk]

Do those 'ducts' actually work?

Dan

[Calamar]

Do those 'ducts' actually work?

Dan

hmm what do you mean? The silicone tubes or the paper boxes?

I've always used silicone tubes because of its durability and because its almost imposible to loose coolant. And is very easy to clean: just stretch the tube. This also works with bubbles when you set up the system and also is good for turns because the flexibility avoids the tube to bend.

The paper boxes really worked! Are the reason for the major overclock. Until the model fits perfectly I'll adjust the paper, then I'll use fiber class to make a fixe one. There was about a 8ºC difference in the graphic cards with and without it. The upper one cools memory and the near the cpu surface (basically because the pipe of the motherboard design).
Just try to close the part of your case you want to cool and observe the difference.
The fans are 1200rpm not 1800.