HDD cooling

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:01 pm

Hey guys what's up?
I have been checking into some cooling solutions for my total system instead of focusing all my attention on the CPU temp. The info I have thus far points to the HDD being the most temp sensitive part in the system. Maxtor says not to exceed 55'C or you may begin to see performance problems. I have looked at several HDD coolers and have pretty much settled on the CoolerMaster that combines the AerogateII with an HDD cooler I think its called the CoolerDrive 4 or something. Anyway I wanted to find out what temp me HDD runs at now before I spend the dough on a cooler. The only temp sensor I found online that gives you a readout that is not part of a cooler runs 15 bucks. I was wondering if a standard digital thermometer tapped to the top of the HDD would work?

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:24 pm

I personmally see this as another gimmick to take your money. For example I run my Maxtor200GB 7200RPM with no noise settings (full blast), and mine never touches 33C, my dual Raptors(10K) run at about 37C, without any active or even passive cooling. Look at most of those high end gamer machines, there is no cooling on them, and they work just fine. I think the main concern when it comes to cooling goes in this order
1.CPU
2.GPU
3.NB
4.RAM
5.Mosfets
6.PSU
Now this is just my personal opinion, others may feel differently, but those listed above are the components you need to focus on. I think these people are just capitalizing on the cooling craze, next week there will probablt be some USB cooler that is essential to your system health, followed by headphone coolers and Display coolers

Post by **Apoptosis** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:39 pm

I got some Icy Dock drive bays... Which are made by Cremax...

http://www.cremax.com/main.htm

I got the ICYDOCK Bodyguard525 (MB228MGF)

I do agree 100% with Capper that HDD cooling should be pretty much the last thing to cool in your case

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:05 pm

I don't know anything about what goes into the making of all these components and as you said the list you gave is your opinion. I have always figured that the best place to find out about what the safe operating perameters of something are is from the manufactorer that would replace the product if it failed. I don't want to get into the realm of my my post "why all the fuss about temps" but my thinking was/is if I want the best performing PC I can have it behooves me to know what the factories say about temps. So far what I have gotten from them is this. The CPU will operate within factory specs up to 85'C max., that temp doesn't change with OCing it just becomes harder to keep down. The RAM does't, according to CORSAIR, have a max temp. you can run it as hot as it will stay stable at. The hard drive, according to Maxtor, will see performance problems at 55'C. Maxtor doesn't,to my knowledge, make or sell HDD coolers so why would they lie. I haven't gotten a response from ATI or ABIT yet as to safe temps. My point is that if the factories say these devices will function whithin guidelines up to temps of 60 or 70'C and the factories aren't making or selling any of the "performance" cooling devices, then who has determined that these "performance" cooling devices are if fact needed. I know "heat is our enemy" but just once I would like to hear at what temp does heat damage my computers components. I know that if you are having crashes and other problems that can't be attributed to anything else and your running at 60'c then you should cool it down. If everything is running fine and your running at 52'C, why is that "a little high" if none of the components are supposed to start failing due to temp until much higher than 52'C? I am not trying to be difficult or abrasive I just want to know that my PC is safe from heat related failures and I get two vastly different sets of numbers. One set from the respondants on this forum and another from the manufactorers of the components in my system. I don't know who is right but without some sort of reason/sources I am inclined to go with the latter.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:07 pm

P.S. What are MOSFETS?

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:13 pm

Well, heat doesn't just burn up components, it also shortens their lifespan, as well as affecting performance. Yes, you are right, there are specs at which those components "fail", but those are extreme limits, not under actual usage.
What you have to understand is there is a point to the various levels of cooling, people didn't just say "hmm, today I think I'll throw a W/C kit in my PC, or ten fans" there is a point to it, and a definite difference between blowing your system up, and having it run well and at optimal performance.
I think you seem to be focusing on the wrong thing. As far as your HDD, it doesn't get much above the ambient temps in your case, and if that ever hits 55C, you might as wqell throw some briquettes in the bottom.
As to temps, I have also linked more than once where CPU temps and different types affect MOBO components,some boards and even CPUs burn out within their specs.
I guess you should look around, if you don't feel comfortable with my advice, there are 20 million other guys preaching the same thing.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:14 pm

MOSFETS Tutorial
http://www.americanmicrosemi.com/tutorials/mosfets.htm

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:26 pm

The CPU will operate within factory specs up to 85'C max., that temp doesn't change with OCing it just becomes harder to keep down

This is true, regardless of what you run your CPU at, the burn out is 85C, but also realize this doesn't take into account what that CPU temp might do to the other components in your system, mostly your mobo. The CPU plugs into a socket on the mobo, if you ever get the chance, feel the board around the socket, it gets quite warm, and if it gets that warm at 34-45C like most CPUs run idle, just imagine what it will do running at 75-80C!Those temps you put so much faith in are based upon those individual components.

The hard drive, according to Maxtor, will see performance problems at 55'C. Maxtor doesn't,to my knowledge, make or sell HDD coolers so why would they lie.

Show me an uncooled HDD running near 55C and I'll show you a system with some serious problems, either that or it is some kind of new "Prescott HDD"
One last thing that I will stress again, these manufacturers give you a failsafe temp, not the temps rhat will "shorten the life of your components", or the temps "where things run optimally",, they can't because every piece they produce is different, while one might run fine at 50C for 20 yrs, the next might die in a month. They can only give you what they know, they can't base their assumptions on what mobo you wiill use, or HDD, etc, they can only talk about their own product.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:36 pm

Why Cool your CPU
http://www.pantherproducts.co.uk/Articl ... cool.shtml

CNN.com - Overheated PCs mean hot business for cooling firms - Jun 4, 2004
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech/06 ... heat.reut/

Building Your Own Computer
http://www.abbeyclock.com/computer2.html

An Investigation of Heat Dissipation In Ultra-Dense Computer Architectures
http://www.mitre.org/tech/nanotech/Heat ... ation.html

Three ways temperature can wreak havoc with your system
http://techrepublic.com.com/5100-6270-5053843.html

There were actually 584,000 hits on Google for "effects of heat on computer components",
Granted, I'm sleeping on the couch, but i don't have time to link them all

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:03 pm

Hey capper slow down on the HDD deal, I did say in my post that I wnated to know what temp my HDD is at now BEFORE I buy a cooler hence the question about a regular digital thermometer. Second, I know these are failsafe temps but 50'C is quite a ways away from 85"c. I am not saying that I am not comfortable with your advise and I know there are at leat 20 million more people saying the same thing. I just want to know or understand where and how you personally arrive at what you feel are "safe" temps for your system. If the manufacturers numbers can't be used as a basis for "safe" operating temps where do the numbers come from or do I just dedicate my life and that of my firstborn child to lowering the temperatures until I reach absolute Zero. I have read posts from you dating back to when you first got your Wavemaster case and then you asked about hte best way to cool it. Now you are talking about getting the heater core out of some old car and using that as the radiator for a water cooling system and then your are going to work on some way to cool the water down even more so you can drop below the temperature of the room your PC is in. Somewhere in between your efforts and the Factories failsafes there has to be a range that is "safe" for alomost all PCs to operate in. I am looking for that temperature. Zalman makes a fanless PC case and Voodoo Pc sels a fanless High performance PC. They couldn't do that if temps have to stay below 50'c. I think I undestand what mosfets are but where are they and how do you cool/monitor them?

A10Pilot3 · Post by **A10Pilot3** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:06 am

Mosfets are on the motherboard next the the processor and the row of capacitors (atleast on mine) there are about 5 of them.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:13 am

Like I've said, cooling and cases are my hobby and my job here. Not everyone requires extreme cooling, and as i've said several times I like to experiment and push the limits...how else can you help others if you have no practical experience yourself.
As to my Wavemaster case, I simply asked for opinions to help lower temps. I have been building computer for more than two years, I have tried every posssible case, every configuration of fans, and even different water coolers, yet it is always good to get others opinions and ideas..
I think before you keep asking questions that you need to look around the net, Some people go with phase change, is it necessary? No, but those guys either want the fastest machine so they can brag, or they are curious and just experimentingto see where the limits are. There is a direct corlation between tempds and performance., Water Coolers? People like me use them to push their computers in everyday apps, playing games, etc. I personally set mine up to maximize my Prescott chip, which supposedly has a "sweetspot" from 3.6- 4.0Ghx. As to other stuff. I am currently building three systems for testing various cooling solutions, two Intel and one AMD setup, so I can help others.
I am, and everyone else here is, willing to help you, and spend alot of time doing it, but for your part, you need to look around more, cooling techniques are not unique to this forum, there are literally hundreds of sites dedicated to it, and about 99.9% are going to tell you the same thing, what makes us unique is that we are still here trying to help you, where other forums would have flamed you off the boards, thats why i love this place and this group. Say whatever you wish, but I'll still be here to try and help you do whatever you decide.
As far as safe operating temps, again you are missing the whole pic, there is failsafe temps, where the processor burns up or shuts down, there are high operating temps (anything over 50C,) where system performance is affected, and coulds possibly shorten the life of or damage your equipment, then there is safe operating range, where I will say is anything under 50C...under load. Is this a law? No, but these numbers are an unwritten rule based upon peoples experiences, look over the boards everywhere on the net, people will say the same thing, where do they get these numbers? From experience, running tests, damaging their equipment, studies, etc. Trust me, it isn't some number we just pulled out of our butts.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:21 am

as far as digital probes I have one I got at Fry's for $9, works fine, but I''m getting a food thermometer that you don't have to contact anything, just point and it reads. Be very careful if your meter has a metal tip...doesn't mix well with electronic parts. I'd get something from an electronics store like Radio Shack, etc. They are ver accurate.

infinitevalence · Post by **infinitevalence** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:03 am

I want to back up some of what capper has been saying with some personal experience. At work we build computers that are used in most major stadiums in the sports world. We also build computers that are used but some of the poorest teams in the country. In some of these places they have no airconditioning in the building and durring a game tepretures can reach 120f or more. As a computer builder and techsupport to these people i have to explain why the computer is shuting its self down, giveing poor video out put or why the hard drive lost all its data. This sort of thing happends all to often. Some times we will get hard drives back from teams and they will still mechanicly function but there is no rescuing the data or formating the drive because of heat dammage. The most heat sensitive part in our computers is our video input/output card we have see these come back so melted that they would not sit flat on a desk. We start seeing major problems with our systems when the internal air in the system gets over 40c.

Now for the technical description of heat.
when you have a cpu that is over heating the heat creates a situation where electrons will flow easyier from one bridge to another. In a cpu there are nonconductive materials between each transistor that are designed to help prevent this leakage, but when the temp is two high it can change their electrical state and cause leakage. This is what creates errors, rebooting, artifacts.... so when the manufactuer says that it will handel upto 85c what they are saying is that if you forget to lock down your heat sink you have a few (read very few) seconds before the cpu fries its self. they do not gaurentee that it will function at that tempreture just that it is designed not to die at that tempreture.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:31 pm

I am convinced! As to our little wrangle Capper, I thought you were a Legit enthusiast just like me. I figured if I went around parroting what others had told me, which I do from time to time, you may also. I did not know that your job for Legit is to review cases and cooling. Just knowing that you are the resident expert on this forum on the subjest is good enough for me. Do I understand correctly that you do not think a fan controller is needed for the WaveMaster?

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:05 pm

So now that all that is over. I don't particularly want to go surfing the web to find out what Capper already knows so if its all the same to you I'll keep asking my questions. I may question at times but thats how I learn. We keep the house at 70'F and I don't remember the conversion. From what I gather the main limiting factor on air cooling is the temperature inside the case as a whole, is this correct? and is the system temp listed on an ABIT AN7's AbitEQ utility the same as case air temp? and lastly what is a reasonable case air temp to aim for considering the ambient temp in my house?

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:18 pm

Damn 70 f?!!! I wish, It is 108F here today, and I'm struggling to keep it at 78F. Where do you live?
As to your question, I think the best you can hope for is about 15C higher than your house temp. On the ABIT EQ, I believe the SYS temp is actually the Chipset temp.hing else I am seeing, the ABIT EQ CPU temps are anywhere from 10-13C higher than the actual temperature.......I found this by researching the ABIT forums. It was supposed to be fixed in the ltest BIOS updates, but wasn't.
So basically, don't trust anything that a software monitor tells you. Go get some kind of thermal probe.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:25 pm

AS to the Wavemaster case. My problem with it was that the airflow is not very good. The stock fans don't move much air, and the compact size makes everything a challenge. What I did to make things better was to replace all the stock fans with Panaflos, I then used a Hardcano to control them because they were a little noisier than the stock ones. I also replaced the top I/O outlet with a 80mm fan sucking the hot air out. So I did use a fan controller the Hardcano, which controls 4 fans and has 4 temps sensors. Personally I didn't like the Hardcano (Its sitting here on my desk) because every time you shut down, it resets itself and you have to re-enter the settings. You might like it because you could control all your fans, and use the temps probes to display the CPU, NB, Video card, and Ambient temp.Also, with W/C, since the temps dont ever reach 40C, it bugged me because you couldn't set the alarms for less than 40C.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:42 pm

I did replace the I/O slot with a fan to suck out the hot air from the top of the case. I am still debating with myself about the door fan we spoke of before. I was wondering about the distance of the front two fans from the front of the case and wondered if they couyld be mostly moving air around inside the case rather than bringing in fresh cool air. My thought was to take off the front of the case and make sort of a fan shroud that would seal off the fans from the rest of the case and bridge the gap between the fans and the case. I then thought I would drill the holes out to a slightly larger hole to allow more air in the front of the case. What do you think? Could I get enough fresh air into the case this way or do you think I will still need to do the door hole with a 120 or 92mm Panaflo.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:21 pm

A far as the temp sensors go, Are all the temps listed by the ABIT software monitor off by 10' or just the CPU? It does explain alot though. I changed CPUs, MOBOs and the case and my temps jumped by 10' give or take 2. If the reading of the MOBO is off by that much then I could be running at 42'C under load rather than the 52' I talked about before. I have seen somewhere that there is a temp probe that is made to be installed into the heatsink right above the CPU. What can you tell me about that and where would I find the probe to install. The ones I have seen on fan controllers are not cylindrical in shape and so would not work.