4870x2 or xfire 4870

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4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by ViPeR.Ja » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:09 pm

am a bit confused because most of the reviews i look at i c that 4870x2 is just a bit faster that two 4870s so wat would be more efficient and possibly cheaper
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by vbironchef » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:23 pm

the 4870x2 is the latest and greatest by ATI. I'm sorry I did not see your motherboard. What do you what to do with either card? Why not a Nvidiva 260 or 280? I think you should always go with a card you can afford because graphic cards go out of date very fast. In three months this question will be a mute point.

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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by ViPeR.Ja » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:05 pm

i have an MSI P35 which supports crossfire so i was thinking ati and i do plan on playing crysis on high and some other games
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by Zertz » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:18 pm

X2 is cheaper and is a tiny bit faster, go for that ;)

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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by Apoptosis » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:43 am

Zertz,

Has someone claimed they know final pricing? Last I heard it was set and that was yesterday when I talked to some folks in Canada over the phone.

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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by Zertz » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:41 am

449-499 is what I've been reading, which makes sense since it would hit the GTX280.

I'd guess 499 MSRP.

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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by texasreefer » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:29 pm

It is my understanding that the P35 chipset runs crossfire in an 8x / 8x configuration. I don't know why but i am sure (from what I've read) that the P45 as well are running 8x / 8x lanes instead of 16x / 16x lanes. That being said an 4870 X2 would definitely be faster if that was the case.

A major upset for ASUS was the release of the Asus Maximus Formula II - which was released in the P45 chipset. Rather than the x38, x48, and up and coming x58.

Weird thing though...the x58 also will run crossfire in 8x lane configuration, and alot 4 PCI-E slots.

GO FIGURE

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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by DaddyRabbit » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:37 pm

texasreefer wrote:It is my understanding that the P35 chipset runs crossfire in an 8x / 8x configuration. I don't know why but i am sure (from what I've read) that the P45 as well are running 8x / 8x lanes instead of 16x / 16x lanes. That being said an 4870 X2 would definitely be faster if that was the case.

A major upset for ASUS was the release of the Asus Maximus Formula II - which was released in the P45 chipset. Rather than the x38, x48, and up and coming x58.

Weird thing though...the x58 also will run crossfire in 8x lane configuration, and alot 4 PCI-E slots.

GO FIGURE

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Actually I believe P35 runs Crossfire at 16x /4x, P45 runs 8x /8x, and X38/X48 runs at 16x/16x. I can see where the 4870X2 might be a bit faster (certainly on a P35 board) Plus you only need a 6 and 8 pin PCI-E power connector versus 4 6 pin PCI-E connectors. Being a "faster single card" type I would go with the X2 myself.
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by texasreefer » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:55 pm

From bit-tech.net....Some Brain Food...The differences are interesting...are 16x lanes really better than 8x lanes

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/1 ... rsus_p35/2


PCI-Express Lanes, Explained

Image
PCI-Express layout in the Intel X38-based Asus P5E3 Deluxe WiFi-AP @n

It's also worth noting where the PCI-Express lanes come from so we can look at their potential latency: The Asus P5E3 Deluxe WiFi AP @n, Intel X38 board runs both x16 lanes direct from the northbridge, which is inherently quicker, being all on one chip and having direct access to both the CPU and memory. In comparison the Asus Blitz Extreme P35 board runs both its x8 lanes from the northbridge, but the data still has to navigate through a PCI-Express splitter chip in between, increasing the latency.

Image

PCI-Express layout in the Intel P35-based Asus Blitz Extreme

Finally our MSI P35 Diamond (P35) board has an unbalanced x16 and x4 combination, which not only means there's an obvious bottleneck in the x4 bandwidth, but the data has to go into the southbridge and share the northbridge-southbridge DMI before meeting with the other card's data. Its latency is far greater making it the most inefficient solution, and because of this, even MSI doesn't advertise CrossFire as being a feature on its P35 Diamond. We're using it here simply because it can do it and it's also DDR3 capable so we can keep the systems as even as possible.

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PCI-Express layout in the Intel P35-based MSI P35 Diamond
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by fps_dean » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:48 pm

I've seen conflicting things about which is faster. About half the reviews show the crossfire setup being faster and half of the reviews show the x2 as being faster (most of them are done on X2 setups) but the one thing that every X2 review I read did complain about was the microstuttering issue when 40fps or lower that makes it seem like it's running at 10fps, suggesting that with this issue, you're better off going with a single card money and performance wise if they pull a nvidia and not address the issue. Most of the existing reviews, if not all of them were done on a a X48. The one thing that the reviews DID agree on is that the 2gb x2 would with at least 8xAA at 2560x1600 resolution would be a bit faster. Half of them suggested that at high resolutions, the x2 is a little faster but overall their performance is VERY close....

Now pricewise the x2 should be around $500 where 2 4870s will probably cost a little bit more and even if you trust the reviews that say XF is faster and you have a X48, it's still not worth it.

What's your resolution? Crossfire doesn't seem to do much below 1920x1200 other than free antialiasing or raising the minimum framerate up a little bit.

Just trying to help - I'm all about ATI right now, low prices and the worst crash ATI ever gives you is that damn useless poller app where Nvidia is constantly giving me blue screens and freezes.

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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by texasreefer » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:03 am

I do not think the microstutter issue is card specific, rather a set-up issue or driver specific issue/problem. A lot of people use Catalyst drivers, and alot of people dislike calayst and go with ATI tool or ATI tray tools or a combination of the three. I researched the following reviews and couldn't find anything on Microstuttering, sure there are some comments on users with microstuttering, but none in the reviews. A lot of people say you can't run Crysis at VERY HIGH settings with HD3870s in crossfire, I do. You just have to configure your drivers correclty and not enable AA or AF (which at resolutions above 1920 x 1200 is not that big of a deal, there is no jaggedness on my screen to smooth out and I game on my 47" 1080p LCD not some crappy 20" monitor).

If you are running resolutions below 1920 x 1200 why are you even here...go get a 7900GTX for $100, that will save you time and money.

As for a Single Card Solution...the 4870X2 IS the single card solution for ATI. No other card in ATIs arsenal comes close to the GTX280. The 4870 doesn't do it, neither does the 4850...they can't even beat the GTX260. If you are trying to match Nvidias performance, better run out and get a 1000W power supply because you are going to need it to run crossfire smoothly. Two cards...One card...same thing. The X2 beats crossfire in every senario, the question is do you want to try and Quad-Crossfire or Tri-Crossfire in the Future.

If you are a single processor man....then I reccomend you go Nvidia. Fact is alot of people, like myself, already have crossfire compatible motherboards. We can get on card, but never go SLI. If you look at most of the forums, Nvidia fanboys are running scared and going SLI....you know why? So they can beat the X2. That should tell you some thing, because once they go OC SLI 280s, the only way to beat that is to get one X2 and compliment with another or a single 4870 to tri-fire.

We're supposed to be enthusiasts...stop trying to play it safe. Thats what Alienware is for!


http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3354

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=588


http://www.legitreviews.com/article/745/1/

http://techreport.com/articles.x/15105/1

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=14178

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?typ...&aid=590&pid=2

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2325444,00.asp

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon...0-x2-preview/1
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by DaddyRabbit » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:02 pm

texasreefer wrote:I do not think the microstutter issue is card specific, rather a set-up issue or driver specific issue/problem. A lot of people use Catalyst drivers, and alot of people dislike calayst and go with ATI tool or ATI tray tools or a combination of the three. I researched the following reviews and couldn't find anything on Microstuttering, sure there are some comments on users with microstuttering, but none in the reviews. A lot of people say you can't run Crysis at VERY HIGH settings with HD3870s in crossfire, I do. You just have to configure your drivers correclty and not enable AA or AF (which at resolutions above 1920 x 1200 is not that big of a deal, there is no jaggedness on my screen to smooth out and I game on my 47" 1080p LCD not some crappy 20" monitor).
Texasreefer,
I agree 99% with the above with the exception that 24" or 47" 1920x1200 is the same on both vid card wise.
texasreefer wrote:If you are running resolutions below 1920 x 1200 why are you even here...go get a 7900GTX for $100, that will save you time and money.)
Because it's a pretty cool place to come and talk hardware in general. Also there are several cards that run very well at under 1920x1200. However if you are planning on upgrading your display in the next year or so you are wasting money by going that route.
texasreefer wrote:As for a Single Card Solution...the 4870X2 IS the single card solution for ATI. No other card in ATIs arsenal comes close to the GTX280. The 4870 doesn't do it, neither does the 4850...they can't even beat the GTX260. If you are trying to match Nvidias performance, better run out and get a 1000W power supply because you are going to need it to run crossfire smoothly. Two cards...One card...same thing. The X2 beats crossfire in every senario, the question is do you want to try and Quad-Crossfire or Tri-Crossfire in the Future.).
I disagree that the 4870 doesn't beat the 260 or "even come close" to the 280 especially for the money. But I guess that is subjective, the reviews are many and are all over the place, and since I don't have any GTX 2xx to compare myself, well you know what they say about opinions :) . Fact is that Nvidia AXED the prices on GTX 2xx after the release of the 4870, not the announcement of R700. undoubtedly Nvidia still holds the pure performance crown (and with the release of an X2 version of 200 series still will) but they still will be G92 based monolithic GPUs with little profit margin flexibility and I'm guessing that the next gen of Nvidia GPUs will reflect the "where the He!! did that come from" surprise they got from R770.
texasreefer wrote:If you are a single processor man....then I reccomend you go Nvidia. Fact is alot of people, like myself, already have crossfire compatible motherboards. We can get on card, but never go SLI. If you look at most of the forums, Nvidia fanboys are running scared and going SLI....you know why? So they can beat the X2. That should tell you some thing, because once they go OC SLI 280s, the only way to beat that is to get one X2 and compliment with another or a single 4870 to tri-fire.
I agree, partially, that for single card guy (I am one of those), the absolute fastest at the moment is the GTX280. However if I can get within 15-20% of that performance for $200 less and, other than in Crysis (which isn't a really good game anyway), and play just about any game I currently own and am likely to buy in the next year, where does the GTX280 win?

Both companies will be releasing new products within the next six months that will incrementaly increase performance. IMHO we have reached a definite point of diminishing returns with GPU performance these days.
texasreefer wrote:We're supposed to be enthusiasts...stop trying to play it safe. Thats what Alienware is for!
Being an enthusiast doesn't mean buying the latest and greatest (read most expensive) latest gear. I make a pretty danged good living but if I tried to keep up with every new release I'd be buried in the back yard next to the dog who my wife caught "rug scooting" :supz:
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by texasreefer » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:46 pm

DaddyRabbit, LOL (rug scootin) thanks for the comments.

Do you think this powersupply can run 2 4870X2s http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817341011

In the case that the link doesn't work: PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad (Red) 750W EPS12V Power Supply
I like it because it has a HUGE single rail rated at 60 amps


I believe the power consumption at load of 2 4870X2s is 680-700W. I know this power supply is rated for 2 3870X2s
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by DaddyRabbit » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:17 pm

I'll miss that dog :cry:

I'm not a PSU guy (that's probably Dan) and the X2 hasn't been released yet so I don't know that the final numbers are in (but I think you're pretty close).

I like the big single rail as well but the way GPUs are sucking power these days...

That said, two 4870X2s? Man I hope you can afford the electric bill!
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by Gomeler » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:37 pm

Powering 2 4870x2's isn't too much of an issue.. now powering 2 4870x2's @ 950MHz core 1100MHz memory will require a second PSU :supz:
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by fps_dean » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:39 pm

Actually texasreefer, you must not have read any 4870 reviews or if you did you only looked at one game, because the 4870 kills the GTX 260 and if you take an average across all games, the 4870 is just behind the GTX 280. And the 4870x2 is a bit ahead of it in every game minus Crysis which isn't very crossfire friendly, at least as of right now.

Additionally you don't have to put up with Nvidias incredibly poor driver support that results in crashes quite often or be bleeding out of the asshole in order to get the money to buy one either.

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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by texasreefer » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:32 am

Check this out...it's kinda troubling...

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php ... 9&pageid=1

Yeah, Yeah...I know what beats what... I was just trying to make a point about how ATI/AMD has made their cards more affordable with the consumer in mind, IMO, as far as pricing and the diveresity of different models available with the 4800 series.
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by Methious » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:23 pm

I've run the 4870, 4850, 4850 Toxic, and the GTX-260 (I've got all 4). The 4870 runs real close to the GTX-260 and just under the GTX-280 when OCed and cooled with the CCC fan trick. But OC the GTX-280 and it pulls away a little.

Put a 4870 and a 4850 Toxic in Crossfire (on a P45 board) and the benchmark numbers squash the GTX-280, the squashing doesn't translate as well into FPS in games at 1680x1050 but in the 1900 range it does pretty good. Turn on AA/AF and the ATI cards do really well.

Daily gaming I prefer the GTX-260 it's just more reliable and the heads of the guys in Crysis don't disappear with the GTX like they do in Crossfire.

Next month I'm trying out a 4850X2 then running it Trifire with a 4850 and a 4870 to see what happens.
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Re: 4870x2 or xfire 4870

Post by texasreefer » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:03 pm

My 4870X2 comes in on TUesday from Newegg..I had been waiting for Asus' TOP card to come out but couldn't wait any longer. I figure its basically the same card, I just wanted to make sure I recieved an OCed version, because typically the OCed versions OC better. Plus, the Diamond card has been listed as hitting 850+ core speed with little difference in FRAPS, so I'd rather just use the default OC settings.

I can hit a consitent 18,900 marks in 3dMark06 with my set-up in vista 32 with 2 HD3870s in Crossfire, so I am hoping to hit at least 22k marks.

I could not get through a successful test in 3dMark Vantage, at PERFORMANCE settings, so I am very curious to see all the eye candy Vantage has to offer (Asteroid scene is awsome).

I wonder if my CPU is going to overclock at the same settings with Vista 64 as it has in x86, or I am going to need more RAM ( I don't think So). I am switching to 64bit because of the 2GBs extra that the 4870X2 is going to add. If I can hit 3.6 just the same I will not be adding anymore RAM. I have seen much data on comparisons between a 4, 6, and 8GB systems performing the same tasks, with little to no difference ( except for Data Transfer and Editing, not FRAPS).
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