E8500 on DDR2 Performance

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bhelms
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E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:42 am

I am about to rebuild my computer. Going to be buying memory, motherboard, video card, and processor. I am thinking about getting a 750i FTW SLI ATX Intel Motherboard, a GTX260 video card, and Intel's core 2 duo E8500. However, the E8500 FSB is at 1333mhz. What I am curious to know is, does that mean if I use DD2 1066 memory, will I not be using the E8500 at its full potential? If so, how much of a performance gain would I get if I used DDR3 1333 memory, and of course a DDR3 compatible motherboard.

The price of going to DDR3 in the end is a bit of a jump a really don't want to make.

If I would be losing that much performance, what would be faster for a GAMING system. Q6600 or an AMD Phenom 8600B (tri-core), both on DDR2 memory of course.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by DMB2000uk » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:59 am

You will be just fine with 800Mhz RAM. I recommend a 4GB 800Mhz CL4 kit.

Because of the way the internal frequencies work in a PC, the FSB is actually at 333Mhz (it's accessed 4 times per Hz), and the RAM would actually be at half of whatever it's rated speed is (it's accessed 2 times per Hz). So in order to maximise the FSB:RAM performance, all you actually would need is 667Mhz RAM.

Still there are still some performance benefits for getting faster RAM, and the 800Mhz kits are at a price now where they represent the best value for money, so you might as well get those.

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:05 am

Thanks for your reply. I be getting 3gb, due to still being on 32-bit. Deciding between 1066 and 800 now.

For my application, being games, the E8500 is probably better right? Over the Q6600. Or is it just that its sufficient and no need to really spend the extra money if I'm not doing a ton of multitasking or using Multi-threaded apps.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:06 am

Also, its interesting that you replied.... I was just browsing the forums and just got done checking out a thread on your build :P
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:27 am

Also, I don't mean to bug, but you seem knowledgeable. I have an older 580W PSU.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817152022


Will that be able to handle everything? Mainly the Video Card I guess is what I am worried about.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by DMB2000uk » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:43 am

Even though you will only be able to see 3.xx GB in 32bit, You should still pick up a 4GB kit so that it can run in dual channel mode for the improved performance.

Plus if you ever decide to upgrade to 64bit you'll be able to unlock the extra bit of RAM left.

And as to the PSU, What will the complete system be? (And how old is the PSU)

I like helping, so don't worry that it might be bugging me (as it's not).

Did you like what i did with my case? :mrgreen:

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:55 am

I like it :) I would KILL for some wire management. I also will probably be putting my case under the knife soon, not much though. I'm going to be having some trouble putting a GTX 260 in my mid-tower.

Anyways,

Motherboard - nForce 750i FTW SLI
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813188026

CPU - E8500
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6819115036

Video Card - GeForce GTX260 Core 216
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130398

Memory - G.SKILL 4gb (2 x 2gb) DDR2 800 OR possibly 1066, whatever I end up deciding.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820231122

Hard Drive - Just my same old WD Caviar 250gb 7200rpm SATA or I might use a Raptor I have lying around somewhere, which is pretty old as well.

Combo CD/DVD drive.

And the PSU 580W about 2 years old, at most.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817152022

This is what the PSU is powering at the moment.

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/Publi ... Title=Hitu

Haven't upgraded anything since I built it about 2 years ago, except put a new combo drive in it.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by martini161 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:12 am

i would upgrade the PSU for that video card. something like a corsiar 620hx would do nicely

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:22 am

EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:31 am

On a side note, do you see any conflicts with the parts I am buying? As far as compatibility. This will just be my second build and I am not extremely knowledgeable with all of this.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by DMB2000uk » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:32 am

Even though the PSU could probably power it, like Martini I'd recommend you get a new decent one (I've not heard many good things about raidmax PSUs).

If you can't afford to get the Corsair (have you looked at the 520HX? That still has a lot of power behind it), then either of those you linked look fine.

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:14 pm

I hate how I am, I am trying to finish up my list of things to buy today and I sit here and stair at 2 items for hours trying to decide.

I like buying from CORSAIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817139005

Buy I also like the idea of having a modular PSU....
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817153039

Freakin' decisions......
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by DMB2000uk » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:24 pm

What case do you have? Depending on how easy you can hide cables should be the deciding factor in which you buy. :P

The corsair is probably the better made PSU though.

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:52 pm

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811144170

Yeah that's what is keeping me from just going for the Thermaltake modular, because the Corsair is better quality, in my opinion.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by martini161 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:29 pm

i currently use a thermaltake psu in my main rig, but its a tough power. dont know about the quality of the non toughpower ones. id go with the corsair, it shouldn't have to many extra cables to hide

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:12 pm

DMB2000uk wrote:You will be just fine with 800Mhz RAM. I recommend a 4GB 800Mhz CL4 kit.

Because of the way the internal frequencies work in a PC, the FSB is actually at 333Mhz (it's accessed 4 times per Hz), and the RAM would actually be at half of whatever it's rated speed is (it's accessed 2 times per Hz). So in order to maximise the FSB:RAM performance, all you actually would need is 667Mhz RAM.

Still there are still some performance benefits for getting faster RAM, and the 800Mhz kits are at a price now where they represent the best value for money, so you might as well get those.

Dan
I think this is wrong.

FSB does run at 4x, but this is all during one clock cycle.

DDR runs at double density, it sends date twice per clock.

And what matters is the full clock cyle.

So that would mean, in 1 cycle the FSB is bottlenecked cause the RAM can only send 800mhz in 1 cycle.

I'm speculating, I don't know if this is true.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by martini161 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:13 pm

i dont know exactly what your saying. heres the thing: Unless your talking about an nvidia chipset (which is irrelavent right now) you have one fsb. the FSB carries data between all your components. Intel CPU's FSB is 4 times the real fsb. IE: if you have a 1600mhz FSB on your intel chip than the true FSB is 400. DDR2 ram operates at twice the FSB, so if you have a 400mhz FSB and run the ram at the 1 to 1 multi, you have 800mhz ddr2 ram.

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by bhelms » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:29 pm

The FSB is accessed 4 times per cycle, not 4 times per MHz. The ram is accessed twice per cycle. So, if you want to set the ratio (CPU:RAM not FSB:RAM) to 1:1, you're better off getting RAM that can function at the speed of the FSB.
EVGA 750i FTW // E8500 // EVGA GTX260 core216 OC // 4GB G.Skill DDR2 1066mhz // 150gb WD Raptor // Corsair TX 750w // Antec 1200

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by DMB2000uk » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:48 pm

bhelms1 wrote: I think this is wrong.

FSB does run at 4x, but this is all during one clock cycle.

DDR runs at double density, it sends date twice per clock.

And what matters is the full clock cyle.

So that would mean, in 1 cycle the FSB is bottlenecked cause the RAM can only send 800mhz in 1 cycle.
You could look at it as being bottlenecked whatever speed the RAM is, as if in your example; once you synced the FSB to RAM (and not the real 1:1 divider, but 1333RAM:1333FSB), the performance of the system would stay the same after a that speed RAM was hit. But as we know that you can keep adding faster RAM and you will still get performance increases from the system.

However, once the FSB is saturated (which is as I posted before), the gains from going to faster RAM are minimal in most situations (a few things like un-raring that are memory intensive benefit a fair bit), so you won't really notice the difference between 800Mhz RAM and 1333Mhz RAM (and that's not even starting to touch on the CAS Latency has on the performance). Which is why I suggested to go with a decent kit of 4GB 800Mhz Cas4 RAM in the first place, you may as well put your money somewhere else it *will* be noticable.

bhelms1 wrote:The FSB is accessed 4 times per cycle, not 4 times per MHz. The ram is accessed twice per cycle. So, if you want to set the ratio (CPU:RAM not FSB:RAM) to 1:1, you're better off getting RAM that can function at the speed of the FSB.
You've got that backwards, it is accessed 4 times per Mhz.
[Edit: Oops, I was wrong on that one.]

Let me clarify a couple of points about FSB and RAM rated speeds.

The Mhz is it's actual clockspeed (so 333Mhz for the 1333 rated FSB). And the actual unit of rating for FSB (and RAM, or anything that does more than one thing per Hz of the cycle) is MT/s. So the FSB is actually 1333MT/s and the RAM is actually 800MT/s (for DDR2-800).

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Re: E8500 on DDR2 Performance

Post by martini161 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:58 pm

bhelms1 wrote:The FSB is accessed 4 times per cycle, not 4 times per MHz. The ram is accessed twice per cycle. So, if you want to set the ratio (CPU:RAM not FSB:RAM) to 1:1, you're better off getting RAM that can function at the speed of the FSB.
No, that is not true. Synthetically, you may see small gains. but the question you asked is if youll see a real world performance hit. the answer to that is no. even something like dan said with RAR'ing things wont gain any real world performance at all because your hard drive speed is going to the the bottle neck way before your memory speed.

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