Would This Work? (New to the forums and hobby)

daftpunkit · Post by **daftpunkit** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:00 am

Hi I am new to these forums but believe
this to be a good place to start asking
questions on my first attempt to build a system.
I have never done much to computer hardware but
I have done minor upgrades to my aging system,
which is:

Falcon-NW-
Asus A7N8X mobo
AMD 2400+ 1.8ghz
Nvidia 4200Ti 64mb, which I upgraded to
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb
80GB IDE Western Digital 7200rpm, which I added another
80GB IDE Western Digital 7200rpm
12x Toshiba DvD drive, also added a
16x NEC DvD burner
256MB PC2700 DDR, which I replaced with
1gb Mushkin PC3200 DDR (which was foolish I now understand)
I installed a:
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS when I got my Logitech Z-5500 speakers

I registered to this site because I have found
myself reading lots of reviews on parts I am looking at.

My budget is around $1200-1500 USD.
I do some minor media editing (music, photos, videos)
and gaming. Pretty much it seems any system that can
handle games can handle the editing too.

So far I have researched around and plan to get:

Mobo:
-Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce 4 SLI Athlon 64(FX) Skt939
or
-DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 ULTRA-D nForce4 Ultra Athlon 64(FX)

I am partially bias to favor Asus because I have a
Falcon-NW system currently and it uses an Asus and
it has been superb, but the DFI has great reviews
over its OC'ing abilities. Though it seems pretty
consistent that DFI's onboard audio is not good and
investing in a SB Audigy is recommended. This is a
factor for me because I own Logitech Z-5500s and the
Asus board does support digital output via Coaxial.
Just wondering on what you guys think.

Processor:
-AMD 64 3500+ Winchester or Venice Core.

I was thinking of a 3800+ or 4000+ since its
3500+ = 2.2ghz vs. 3800+ = 2.4ghz vs. 4000+ = 2.6ghz
which is$260-280 vs. $360-375 vs. $480s.
I have read lots on this general area of AMDs
and got the understanding that 90nm > 130nm because
it is slightly better performing but much better
in terms of OC'ing and runs cooler. But I cannot seem
to find out the difference between Venic and Winchester cores.
Winchester I keep hearing is the OC'ing choice because of its
temperatures, but I think Venice runs just as cool? Still not
sure, I plan more researching into this.

Memory:
-2GB of some Corsair XMS or Kingston Hyper X PC3200
if you guys can suggest a particular model that be appreciated.

Video Card:
-2x GeForce 6800GTs, eventually, one for now.
I've seen them around $349 all the way to $500.
Not sure why such a difference in prices, haven't
looked too much into it.

Hard Drives:
-2x 250GB Seagate SATA in Raid 0 array
I may in the future get 2 Raptor drives and have them
Raid 0 arrayed because I hear it is fast and I am curious, hehe.

Any suggestions or insight on what I am missing or if my theoretical
computer is not going to work. This is my first real attempt at this
sort of attempt.

Thank you in advance.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:52 am

Daft,
welcome to the forums. i am glad you like and trust our reviews, we put a lot of time, effort, and heart into each one.
To address your ideas one at a time.........
1. You seem to care a lot about sound quality. I noticed no issues at all with the DFI NF4 board, the daughterboard they used seemed okay to me. As far as ASUS, their board are nice, very stable and feature rich, but I just have not cared much for theeir boards as an enthusiast since the P4C800-E Deluxe.....that may change as I'm working on the P5DW2 Premium right now and it rocks.....DFI includes the best bundle on the market.....but check out MSI Neo4Platinum, it comes with SB Audigy Audio built into the board. Their NF4 board is on par with the DFI in my opinion.
Or, you could simply use the SB card you already have, and use the onboard audio for your existing system.

2. I'd definitely recommend the Venice core, you might even consider the 3200+ to save a few pennies.....it should O/C almost as well as the 3500+. The 3800+ is a decent processor, but why bother spending a couple hundred more when all the other components you have assembled are going to let you get better performance out of a cheaper processor? save the extra money, get a good cooling solution or use the difference for some high quality RAM.

3. 1GB should be plenty, Two GB will run slower, and be too expensive....and you don't want to run 4x512MB on an AMD system.
I'd recommend some Corsair XMS 4400C25PT, it will run 2-2-2-5 at 400, and 2.5-4-4-8 at 550. If you get the DFI board you might also look into some OCZ VX4000 Gold. It will run 2-2-2-5 at 500, but doesn't seem to O/C as well as some other high end stuff.

4. I'm not a big SLI fan, I'd recommend either a single 6800 Ultra, or an X850 XT, both outstanding cards. i personally use the X850 all the time and love it. some people love SLI, but to me I think it is a fad that will pass, especially considering companies are toying with dual GPU cards already....save the moeny.

5. For HDD I highly recommend the Maxtor DiamondMax 10. It has 300GB of space, an more importantly a 16MB buffer. Best HDD on the market right now. Skip the Raptors, a huge waste of money. You could get 300GB of Maxtor that is just about as fast for the same price a 74GB Raptor will cost you. RAID arrays really don't do much in the end, unless you have 3-4 of them and run them in RAID 5 or10.
So.....

AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor - $272
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6819103532

MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - $180
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813130487

CORSAIR XMS 1GB (2 x 512MB) 4400C25PT- $225
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820145551

SAPPHIRE 100106 Video Card - $499
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814102483

Maxtor MaXLine III 7B300S0 3.5" Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - $202
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6822144363

Grand Total........$1378....not bad at all

infinitevalence · Post by **infinitevalence** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:48 am

I think your upgrade looks great, and all of cappers suggestions i would second. The DFI does have digital out so you dont need to use the audio modual as far as i know. The asus is also a good board, one of my best friends just got it and he really likes it. When it comes to CPU the 3200+ venice is the best choice, it should hit 2.6+ and stay nice and cool. Capper is absolutly right about 1gb runing 2 will force you to slow down your memory on any AMD system so you will get better perforamnce from 1gb. Like Capper i also think that SLI is more of an E-Penis thing than anything else, one Ultra or X850XT is well worth the price, thast not to say that 2x6800GT's wont screem. And finaly when it comes to HD either the Seagate or the Maxtor would be my choice, seagate comes with 5 year warrantys, and the maxtor comes with 16mb cache so its all up to you. Both will perform about the same because the seagate is based on 133gb platters while the maxtor is on 100gb platters.

daftpunkit · Post by **daftpunkit** » Sat May 14, 2005 12:59 pm

Thanks a lot so far Capper and Infinite.

The RAM looks pretty solid and I think I will go for the
CORSAIR XMS 1GB (2 x 512MB) 4400C25PT
but I think I heard somewhere AMD boards don't
support or use dual channel ram? Not sure about this fact.

As far as cpu's, yeah I plan to go either with the
3200+ or 3500+ venice core. Do you think the saving
~$70 is worth getting a 3200 vs 3500? I can't seem to
find a good performance chart of the two being compared.

HDs, yeah I am definitely impressed with the Maxtor, but
I want 2 HDs at least, just because I like to seperate important
files vs. media/game files, just incase one hd fails, so thats why
I was wondering about RAID setups because then I have to find
controllers(?) but I hear there are hardware and software verisons
of these but I would think hardware verison being better.

As far as graphic card(s), Yeh I have definitely spent not nearly
enough time here. I was looking at the 6800GTs because I hear
can OC rather easy to Ultra performances and that would save
around $125-150. SLI technology hasn't been reviewed thoroughly
enough I think to give it credit to being worthwhile which is why I
plan to get one SLI card for now. ATIs card X850 I hear is a marginal
improvement on the X800, but I have an ATI right now and I do enjoy
it. I just think I'll go probably get one 6800GT for now, cause my friend currently has a 6600GT and likes it and plans to dual it soon, which I
might use him as a reference or not. I might get 6600GTs depending,
I haven't seen a comparison really on the two, 6600GT vs. 6800GT,
but time is not an issue right now for me, so I keep searching and reading.

Heh, maybe by the time I finally settle down on parts, their price will
have dropped cause I took my time.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:40 pm

I think I heard somewhere AMD boards don't
support or use dual channel ram? Not sure about this fact.

My DFI board and Corsair memory scream. I run it at 2.5-3-3-7 at 270FSB (2.7GHz).

For the $70 difference, go with the 3500+, you won't be disappointed at all. Some of that money can be made up from other savings.

In your case of two HDD....go with a pair of Maxtors, 600GB of space, use one as a working drive, and the other as storage. I have had bad experiences with Western Digital so far, and for the performance just can't recommend a 74GB drive for $180.

The thing about the X850 as compared to the X800 is simple. ATI was overly aggressive with the X800 and memory, they could not come up with an adequate supply to make their X800 line. so they redid the GPU to run better and cooler, then they used memory that ran a little slower, so they could fill the full order of X850s....so basically they optimized the GPU to compensate for slowing down the memory a tad. The X850 won't show a lot of improvement over the X800, except in cooling performance.....mine runs much cooler.
I used to recommend ATI over NVidia simply because their drivers were far better, and updated much more often, however, NVidia has gotten much better about this over the past 6 months.
Still, I recommend the X850 (specific brands like Sapphire or Power Color) over NVidia cards.

I have a pair of 6600GTs I'll probably sell, as well as a 1GB kit of Kingston PC4300 DDR 1.
As far as where you buy....I used to be a Newegg fan, but their prices have gotten so ridiculous I have been comparson shopping, both Monarch and Zip Zoom Fly have really caught my eye for competitive prices and availability.

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Sat May 14, 2005 5:19 pm

call me crazy, but i think 300gb is a bit excessive.... why not 160? 160 is more than ample for gaming.... like, get a 160 and an 80 for storage... then, save the rest.... buy your girl a nice necklace just because you love her or something (assuming you have one... if you dont, do something for your parents)

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:26 pm

buy your girl a nice necklace just because you love her or something (assuming you have one... if you dont, do something for your parents)

Are you high?

300GB is not excessive, with OS' and programs getting bigger and bigger, 300 GB is perfect. I'd recommend a minimum of 200GB total diskspace. Plus, for the cost to storage ratio, the $200/300GB and performance is much greater than a standrd $120-140/160GB HDD.

infinitevalence · Post by **infinitevalence** » Sun May 15, 2005 12:30 am

lol 300 gig is excessive... right now i have 1.7TB in my apt and thats under estimating i still have a few laptop drives im not even counting. Storage is cheap might as well get plenty of it rather and not enough and have to buy more later.

daftpunkit · Post by **daftpunkit** » Sun May 15, 2005 5:23 am

Ok I am pretty sold on the 3500+ for a cpu so far because I am seeing it stands above the 3200 rather well and is good until compared to the 4000+ so it seems like a good intermediary in performance.

Yeah, twin Maxtors is what I also plan to go for it looks like also. But I have heard some mixed reviews as far as Maxtor is for company wise. Seems to revolve round ball bearings? or something another? I didn't pay much attention because it seemed rather bias comments. Seagate just doesn't seem to be impressing me right now with what they have to offer really, although I am still looking around reviewing, etc. 600GB is not too much for me, I do plan to use around 4 HDs eventually. I have tons of media, music, videos, as I do Fraps a lot of stuff and I do converts etc, like I said originally I do mild media editing.

Again I am so confused on the video cards. So much mixed reviews on them. 6800GT is definitely greater then 6600GT, and about even with SLI 6600GTs, so SLI 6800GTs is supposedly the best out there (well aside from SLI 6800 Ultras) but at that price. I have seen 6800GTs sold in a pair on a few sites, the lowest being $699 which I think is expensive (If I do go 6800GT, I will buy one at first, maybe a 2nd one months down the road) but when its only $100-150 more then the 6800 Ultra and X850 XTs, for much more performance... I dont know. It's questionable because it seems some review sites keep using HL2 as a test but HL2 is ATI favored because of the way it was programmed (Heh, I have a 9800 Pro and it scores better then 6600GT in HL2), but the 3D benchmarking tests show differences expected from SLI. I still have to do more reading it seems.

A new question is OC'ing. I am obviously looking into this because it always has interested me. As far as I know you can overclock a lot of stuff, but CPU, RAM, and vid cards are the most safest ones to do. Vid cards are OC'd using software, right? and CPU and RAM are through BIOS by changing the voltage? Is that a correct understanding? So if I plan to OC I have to plan to cool it down.
What methods are good for this? Water cooling looks neat and effective, especially since Corsair put out an seemingly effective one. But I think that might be excessive. Would more fans work enough?

Thanks again. So far this has been really helpful.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Sun May 15, 2005 5:35 am

for a person who wantrs to get into the hobby, a 3500+ is the perfect CPU, even at stock speeds its a great processor. It overclocks well, and is reasonably priced.
I have had serious problems with Western Digital, rude customer service, etc. Maxtor has replaced HDD for me without question twice....(house got hit with lightning, fried some stuff i was testing). i swear by Maxtor.
Another way to look at the HDD, is with NCQ and SATA II, you don't have to worry about any real new technology for awhile....HDD are always going to be a systems bottleneck.
As far as video cards, both camps have their fans, for a variety of reasons...this bechmark, that game, this shader, that driver....etc....to be honest, I have used a wide variety of cards, some that show a huge difference in benchmark difference, and no difference at all in game play.....these companies use benchmarks to sway a buyers decision. Look for instance at NVidia drivers...they even have customized settings for benchmarks. A pair of 6600GTs will beat everything and be pretty close with an Ultra, My 6600GTs in SLI beat my X850XT in most benchmarks, I just ain't buying into SLI, It will take awhile to convince me it isn't just a trendy fad.
Do research it, get different opinions and ask reasons for those opinions, but be careful. These companies even have people out there talking up their own products and bashing competitors, and they portray themselves as enthusiasts like you and me.

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:59 am

capper5016 wrote:
buy your girl a nice necklace just because you love her or something (assuming you have one... if you dont, do something for your parents)
300GB is not excessive, with OS' and programs getting bigger and bigger, 300 GB is perfect. I'd recommend a minimum of 200GB total diskspace. Plus, for the cost to storage ratio, the $200/300GB and performance is much greater than a standrd $120-140/160GB HDD.

'

meh... i bought my sata 160gb for only $70 from this one site... 7200rpm and 8mb buffer...

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Sun May 15, 2005 1:50 pm

so!? I cracks me up when people go all out on 3/4 of their system, and drag down the overall performance by skimping on a critical piece.......
Do the right thing, buy a HDD that has plenty of room, supports SATA II and NCQ, save money where you can, like by using a 3500+ instead of a 3800-4000. there are places in your system where it makes sense to cut corners as a DIYer, but there are places you really can't cut corners too. the difference between a HDD that cost $70 and a Maxline III will be noticeable.

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm

it's not a bad drive... it's a western digital sata hd. 160gb for $70 = steal (i bought it almost a year ago).

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Sun May 15, 2005 6:58 pm

Audio, you are right....i went to Fry's today and looked threough their HDD selection. you can find the deals if you look, and some are a good va.ue. i wasn't really implying you were wrong....just that if a guy wants a top end system on a budget, you skimp where you can...by buying a good overclocking processor, or a good motherboard that either has a good bundle, or overclocks well, or by buying an XT instead of a Platinum Edition card...then flashing the bios to a PE. thats what makes us enthusiasts, being creative and finding ways to maximize what we can afford.

-mogwai · Post by **-mogwai** » Sun May 15, 2005 7:16 pm

ah, word. cool deal. see, if i had that kinda money, i'd probably do the same thing... i guess i'm just used to cutting corners in order to afford things later on that i try to think as practical as possible hehe... it's almost like when you're playing a video game and you have a certain amount of money and you gotta choose what it is that you ACTUALLY need... but then, later on, you have a whole ton of money and you just click and buy/upgrade everything and anything just because you can.

daftpunkit · Post by **daftpunkit** » Mon May 16, 2005 2:57 am

ok I got a good view of what I plan to get but have few more questions that popped up as I was looking at prices.

One is the Maxtor HDs. What makes Maxline III better then Diamond 10s?
Both has the same cache size, 16MB, seek times, and NCQ, just one is 5yr warranty vs 3yr. and priced differently, only $17.00, but still differently. Spec details seem identical.

Also I still can't find any difference in Venice vs. Winchester core. No sites are seem to tell me, all just seem to say they are 90nm cores and better, but can't seem to find a difference between the two.

And the thing I seem to be deciding on Video cards so far is the brand maker, because it seems that matters, from what I am reading. So far I am deciding between XFX, BFG, and eVGA makes on the 6800GT.

Also I am deciding between MSI and Asus:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... etailSpecs
vs.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... etailSpecs

Like always, thanks again in advance.

LVCapo · Post by **LVCapo** » Mon May 16, 2005 4:58 am

1. The Maxline II is optimized wuith the new SATA 3.0GB/sec optimization. It is basically just a refinement of the SATA II system. The drive also has a much higher mean time to failure rate and a 5 yr as opposed to 3 yr warranty. Most current drives are still at 8MB cache and SATA 1.5GB/S

2. Like the HDD, the Venice core is simply a refinement of its predecessor, the Winchester. The Venice has an improved memory controller, among other small optimizations, and seems to be a much better overclocker. I have also heard rumors that the Venice might end up supporting DDR2....we always hear rumors, and until we actually see something, it is no more than that.
3. video cards.....tough call there. All of the companies you mention are very good, but take different approaches. You might look at the BFG 6800GT O/C, it has better cooling and is clocked higher by BFG, it has also gotten great reviews for its almost 6800Ultra performance.
4. I'd go with the MSI. ASUS makes good, stable boards, but this MSI has gotten rave reviews only topped by the DFI board. A lot of people seem to be very happy with the performance as well as the package, which includes a built in Creative Audio chip....saving you a lot of money

daftpunkit · Post by **daftpunkit** » Mon May 16, 2005 1:27 pm

Ok, I found MSI's board to be actually $1 cheaper than ASUS's board! So I'll probably go down that route, but I am still looking at DFI, and I am very impressed with all except that one minor flaw, which isn't big, and that is the fan they put on the board sits under a 6600-6800 video card because it looks like they didn't plan the card length into consideration, just one minor detail they missed, where everything else seems flawless. I really like how they moved around their layout for optimum heat disbursement and their BIOS looks pretty neat, but I'd have to know what I am doing in there, don't want to fry any hardware.

I can't tell the difference either between the
178$ verison: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813136157
and the 199$ verison: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813136151

*oops read the comments and they tell the difference, however it's slight

infinitevalence · Post by **infinitevalence** » Mon May 16, 2005 2:46 pm

The DFI fan is low profile and does not interfear with gfx cards.

daftpunkit · Post by **daftpunkit** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:57 pm

You have to applaud DFI for putting so much effort and care into the smallest details of this board. One issue I did have was installing my 6600GT into the x16 PCI-E slot. Once installed, the card sat pretty firmly on the fan housing, causing it to sit at an angle. I tried a different card (RX600 Pro-GURU) and had the same result. this didn't cause any real problem as I simply had to wiggle the fan housing a touch to get it sitting flat on the chipset again. After insrtalling you video card, be sure to check the fan housing and clearance around you video card. While I did install a water cooling unit in this system, I did not use it to cool the chipset. I suspect this would be an issue for everyone though, and to be honest, with the lack of room I do not see a water block being a sensible solution here. Too bad, as the chipset on the NForce 4 boards is arguably the hottest I have seen to date. I also want to add that this issue is not unique to DFI as all NF 4 boards seem to be having issues with the chipset cooler placement in relation to the PCI-E X16 slot.

That is something that came to my attention and it is why I am still sort of happy I won't really build this system till end of the summer, maybe (I doubt tho), that the next gen of NF4 boards will somewhat solve this problem.