George W. Bush abandons Americans

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-mogwai
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Post by -mogwai »

Soliex wrote:I wouldnt wanna go into an area where chaos is let loose. i heard people are actually sniping the aid workers going into the area because they still wanna loot and be uncivilized.
bull. the media is totally slanted, as nate's article just showed. why is it that black people "loot" while white people "search for food and supplies"? it sickens me when i hear the press bash people wading in, essentially, a cesspool in 100 degree weather in order to find some kind of food, water, or supplies to help their families. i'll tell you right now, if there were a flood and i was a victim on a rooftop with a family who was starving and thirsty, i'd loot everyplace. i'd loot grocery stores, i'd loot gas stations, i'd loot jewelry stores, i'd loot pawn shops... i'd loot the hell out of everyplace i could in order to try and a) get things for my family and/or, b) get valuables that i can trade for food, water, and supplies... or even rescue.

people do desperate things in desperate times. to say that rescue workers were sniped is absurd. the fact of the matter is that desperate people stranded on their rooftops, delirious after 4 or 5 days of heat and starvation, threatened rescue workers with gunfire so that they'd rescue them and their families. the media made it seem as if it was just a bunch of stereotypical urban black people who, without logic, decided to arm themselves with their gats and bust caps in people, even rescue workers (like they ALWAYS do, right? :roll:). don't feed into that crap... it's just dumb media "black vs white" tricks.

if any of you guys have read any of my posts pertaining to politics or government, you'd probably know that i was a poli-sci minor in undergrad and very much hate bush.... however, this russian journalist took it a little too far. by writing such a slanted article, it destroys any credibility this journalist might have.... even though, on some counts, he's absolutely correct.

that article was even too much for me to handle. it made me laugh and just start skimming rather than actually reading. journalists like these should be fired.

as for the blame, i think a large portion of it lies squarely on the shoulders of george w bush. he should have a) went on national television and strongly urged the people in new orleans to evacuate, b) urged local officials to evacuate areas, c) declared martial law, d) not played the fiddle while rome was burning (in other words, playing golf and enjoying great weather while death and destruction befell the gulf coast is a poor way to show leadership).

and what the hell of the readiness for a potential terrorist threat in new orleans? billions were pumped into that city for readiness programs in the case of potential attacks. if we couldn't utilize the various resources at hand to evacuate people in a hurricane attack scenario (a scenario in which we had days in advance for which to prepare), or otherwise, how deep in the flood waters are we, really?

yes, terrorists DO warn the government and president of a timeframe and modality of their attack (as was evident to the letter bush got back in may 2001), but it's harder to pinpoint the exact timeframe (give or take a few hours) and exact location when it comes to a terrorist attack than it does with a ginormous category 5 hurricane "of biblical proportions."

personally, i think the hurricane naming system is terrible. enough with this "hurricane pussyname mcwonthurtyou" crap. you think people are gonna leave their houses for a hurricane named katrina? they gotta come up with power names.... names that will make you grab your balls and run... names based on the severity of the hurricane. if it's a category 1, call it hurricane disney.... if it's a category 5, call it hurricane annihilation or hurricane zotar or hurricane thor or something....

EDIT: oh, and as for the gas thing... i believe that the american oil companies are holding out on american citizens in order to get even richer off of, what would be to them, a minor setback. i feel this way because we currently have about 400% more oil and gas than we say we do thanks to leeching oil in iraq. i understand that there's a global shortage... which is why the oil and gas companies are hoarding the 400% extra squandered in iraq in hopes to keep their companies lasting as long as they can. they're afraid of legislation that will move away from them and towards alternative fueling (a bill which dick cheney pissed on back in july of 2001 when bmw came with technology for hydrogen fueled cars that have over 200 horsepower... he said that alternative fueling was a waste of money and unrealistic and that we needed to spend more of our money and resources on a global defense shield... good call, dick :roll:).

everyone knows, according to the hubbert curve, that oil production has been on a permanent concave down trend (decline) since around 1974 and was predicted to peak in the year 1995. we've been riding the downward slope of the curve for quite some time, now. for someone to say alternative fueling is "unrealistic" and "a waste of money" is dickish (pun intended). between now and about 12 years, we're about to feel the most powerful plunge in oil production ever (isn't it ironic that around 12 years is the proposed timeline given by the government on when we will get out of the middle east?). anyways, i'm just about worn out on bush and his cronies... they embarrass me about as much as howard dean.
Last edited by -mogwai on Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by LVCapo »

people do desperate things in desperate times. to say that rescue workers were sniped is absurd. the fact of the matter is that desperate people stranded on their rooftops, delirious after 4 or 5 days of heat and starvation, threatened rescue workers with gunfire so that they'd rescue them and their families. the media made it seem as if it was just a bunch of stereotypical urban black people who, without logic, decided to arm themselves with their gats and bust caps in people, even rescue workers (like they ALWAYS do, right? Rolling Eyes). don't feed into that crap... it's just dumb media "black vs white" tricks.
Thats a load of crap, and a total cop out. I have no problem with people grabbing food or water.....but who needs a plasma TV or XBox? There was more than a little of that going on. As to the whole Black/White thing, that **** has totally worn thin on me. Kanye West is an uneducated friggin idiot who cries racism to get attention or when things don't go his way (just like he did when he didn't win a Grammy last year), and Howard Dean is a self centered moron who can't take a round to the forehead soon enough.
As to people shooting at aid workers....Have you been watching TV? Have you seen the interviews? They shot 8 looters who opened fire on aid workers two days ago....thats not even going into the little gangs roaming the streets....the ones in the Super Dome carrying off, raping and then murdering teenage girls and boys.....
I need to go to bed, you post almost made my head explode
Last edited by LVCapo on Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by -mogwai »

yeah, i saw that cops shot and killed 8 looters who were trying to help their families. i find that sad.

most people who looted plasma tvs and xboxes did it as a way to trade with other victims for food and water. they also tried to use it as a way to bribe rescuers to help them first. there was a great article about it in the chicago tribune a week or so ago.

also, what difference does it make if people were looting plasma tvs or xboxes? whether they were going towards trading for food/water or as a bribe for rescue, who cares? it's not like any of that stuff will be sold anywhere. it's not like when the flood waters recede, places that carried those things, like walmart, will still be open and sell it. those buildings were going to be filled to the top with water, anyway. also, big businesses like walmart, best buy, etc just have to claim insurance or damaged goods and they'll be fine. what about the people and small businesses? they won't.

speaking of walmart, don't donate your money to the red cross. find a smaller charity more local to the destruction. about 75-80 cents of every dollar you donate never gets to families that actually need it (whether it be because of logistics, political corruption, or marsha j. evans' 6-figure salary). try and find a charity that will match your dollar donation (and make sure it's legit!!!!).
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Post by LVCapo »

yeah, i saw that cops shot and killed 8 looters who were trying to help their families. i find that sad.
most people who looted plasma tvs and xboxes did it as a way to trade with other victims for food and water. they also tried to use it as a way to bribe rescuers to help them first. there was a great article about it in the chicago tribune a week or so ago.
What planet do you live on? I might be alone on this, but these people were not looting electronics, jewelry, and liquor to barter for food....thats ridiculous. Who are they going to trade that stuff with fpor food? Do you think other people, who are in the same situation are going to trade their food for that stuff? That makes no sense what so ever!

You know who picks up those insurance bills? People like you and me....Trust me, the insurance companies don't lose out.....neither do small businesses, they have the same insurance as Wal-Mart, they also have orginizations like the SBA, and even FEMA.
Also, just for argument sake, what difference could it possibly make if the stuff people stole was going to be ruined by water damage? Does it make it right to steal? And while we are on the topic of galactically stupid thoughts, maybe those people that were gang raping young girls and boys were just working off frustration of having nothing to do....maybe instead of raping, murdering, looting, and shooting at aid workers....they could have pitched in and helped (wow, theres a novel idea). Maybe those people #1 should have listened when they were told to leave, and #2 after the fact they could have done something to help people instead of doing what they did.
Audio, you are a good dude, but you are WAY wrong all around on this.
I think I killed several brain cells reading that last post.
Last edited by LVCapo on Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by LVCapo »

as for the blame, i think a large portion of it lies squarely on the shoulders of george w bush. he should have a) went on national television and strongly urged the people in new orleans to evacuate, b) urged local officials to evacuate areas, c) declared martial law, d) not played the fiddle while rome was burning (in other words, playing golf and enjoying great weather while death and destruction befell the gulf coast is a poor way to show leadership).
What??!!!??

Better than GW telling people and local officials to evacuate, he had the HEAD OF THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER and the HEAD OF THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE tell everyone to leave. I know I watched Shep Smith from Fox News wandering the streets of New Orleans the day before the storm hit, he was flabbergasted that people were carrying on like nothing was happening, He stopped in bars and was asking people "What are you srtill doing here?!!" and to the man, every single one said they have dealt with storms before and this was no different, the levees would hold fine, and everyone was overreacting.... How much more can you do? I'm sure you expected GW to teleport to New Orleans and by himself start carrying people out....lord help anyone take personal responsibility for the decisions they made....hell, even now there are thousands of idiots refusing to leave, with no food, no water, chemical everywhere, looters, fire, plague, and these people are ignoring a mandatory evacuation!!!! JESUS, you watch wayyyyy too much Michael Moore.
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Post by -mogwai »

as for the raping and whatnot, that's just a shame. there are crazy, perverted people in the world... it only takes a situation like this (and even less) for them to act out and molest people.

this brings me to another thought... what happened to the prisoners in all the jails all over the area? i wonder if they were rescued and evacuated or something... thus giving rise to rescue workers being "sniped" and women and kids being raped.

either way, there are bad people in the world. however, i don't think it's bad to try and survive when you don't have anything. looting to survive is something that must be done. no one will sit by and starve their families to death just because stealing is wrong. also, bartering electronics for food happens and it happened for those stranded in new orleans. it may seem ridiculous to you, but desperate times make people think outside the box, so to speak (for lack of a better phrase). i sure as hell would steal whatever i could in order to get food... whether it be a loaf of bread or an xbox to trade someone for one of their loaves of bread. it isn't like everyone had the same amount of looted food. some people got an early headstart and grabbed tons of food and came back for more.

regardless of who pays for the insurance on lost or damaged goods, the fact remains that everything in new orleans stores will be claimed. even if a store got looted, the stuff inside would still be claimed because it'd be no good anymore. it'd have been subject to an extremely unsanitary environment, water-logged, spoiled, soaked, etc.... none of the stuff could be sold.

the point i guess i'm trying to make is that sometimes you gotta try and see things from a different perspective. i was out of my element one night and managed to stomach some fox news.... i watched shephard smith and geraldo rivera in the streets of new orleans freaking out when the military was baracading citizens in and not allowing anybody to leave and giving no explanation as to why. geraldo held a baby and cried in front of the camera asking, "i mean.... what the hell?!" these two fox news correspondants were in the thick of the devestation and were asking why the hell the government had forsaken these people. that's when gears shifted and i didn't hear ANYTHING else from them the entire rest of the night. i died laughing whenever thinking, "they're so fired. rupert is not a happy nazi." people in the studios were like "it'll be ok" (like bill o'reilly told shep smith the night before) and the reporters in the thick of it all were like "uh, NO IT'S NOT! you're not here! you don't know!"

people get desperate when EVERYTHING they ever had got washed away in a hurricane. are you gonna be the dude who takes away someone's "new" ps2 just because he got it from looting? it's the only possession he's got besides the filthy clothes on his back. why take something away from someone when it wouldn't even make a difference? if i were a store owner from new orleans, i'd pray that people would loot the living crap out of my store... just so they could have something to eat or drink... or have. i'd consider it my DIRECT donation to the flood victims.

rich, don't get heated, bro. we're on different wavelengths... you're an ultra-republican and i'm very democrat. we just share a difference in opinion on [s]most[/s] all things.
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Post by LVCapo »

this brings me to another thought... what happened to the prisoners in all the jails all over the area? i wonder if they were rescued and evacuated or something... thus giving rise to rescue workers being "sniped" and women and kids being raped.
People in the local jails were released as long as they were not a threat. Those that were threats were transported to safe jails or the state pen.

the point i guess i'm trying to make is that sometimes you gotta try and see things from a different perspective. i was out of my element one night and managed to stomach some fox news.... i watched shephard smith and geraldo rivera in the streets of new orleans freaking out when the military was baracading citizens in and not allowing anybody to leave and giving no explanation as to why. geraldo held a baby and cried in front of the camera asking, "i mean.... what the hell?!" these two fox news correspondants were in the thick of the devestation and were asking why the hell the government had forsaken these people. that's when gears shifted and i didn't hear ANYTHING else from them the entire rest of the night. i died laughing whenever thinking, "they're so fired. rupert is not a happy nazi." people in the studios were like "it'll be ok" (like bill o'reilly told shep smith the night before) and the reporters in the thick of it all were like "uh, NO IT'S NOT! you're not here! you don't know!"
I saw some of what you are describing, but you are rehashing it toally out of context. First of all, they were talking about the local government as well as the federal government, and it goes back to "shoulda, woulda, coulda...didn't".
I mean c'mon man "Ruppert the Nazi", how old are you? what is your educational background? What are your life experiences? I'm baffled that an intelligent, educated person can post some of this in all seriousness.
As to me being "Ultra- Republican", there you go again, making assumptions. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative. I don't vote party, I vote platform. I don't argue party, I take each case or topic on its own merit. and I take great offense to the "Ultra Republican" comment, to me my thoughts are just common sense, it makes me angry that you sem to be willing to pass blame on President Bush and "Republicans", but are willing to make excuses for everyone else..
Also, for all of this bull**** you justify, Mississippi went through a worse ordeal than Lousiiana, and they are not acting anywhere near as primitive as NO. I'm tired of hearing the excuses. You want to see people make the best of a bad situation, look at other catastrophies around the world.....Man should be, and more often than not, is at his best, when things are at their worst.
I'm beyond tired of race and politics being played into this.....its called integrity, and personmal responsibility, and a vast majority in one city has none.
Last edited by LVCapo on Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by LVCapo »

I have to say, I'm beyond words at about 95% of what you say. I just can't honestly believe someone can justify what you are saying.
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Post by -mogwai »

buddy, you know i consider you a friend... it's just that by talking with you about certain issues, your platform seems to be staunchly republican. i didn't mean to offend you by saying you were ultra-republican. i was basically just trying to say that we both lean heavily on different sides of the aisle. we both have different experiences, educations, and values that shape our opinions. i completely agree that it should always boil down to integrity and responsibility whenever people are face-to-face with life-threatening adversity. however, we don't live in thomas more's 'utopia.' sometimes people will do things that aren't ideal... but that just comes right back to the point that people have different experiences, educations, and values that mold their minds -- thereby molding their actions.

you asked what my educational background was. i'll pm you the info so i don't look like an asshole or something.
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Post by LVCapo »

You don't have to worry about that, you are in no way an asshole....your opinions are every bit as valid and important as mine......we might disagree strongly on this, but that doesn't mean I'm right and you are wrong, or vice versa.....we all have opinions.
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Post by killswitch83 »

audiophile wrote:buddy, you know i consider you a friend... it's just that by talking with you about certain issues, your platform seems to be staunchly republican. i didn't mean to offend you by saying you were ultra-republican. i was basically just trying to say that we both lean heavily on different sides of the aisle. we both have different experiences, educations, and values that shape our opinions. i completely agree that it should always boil down to integrity and responsibility whenever people are face-to-face with life-threatening adversity. however, we don't live in thomas more's 'utopia.' sometimes people will do things that aren't ideal... but that just comes right back to the point that people have different experiences, educations, and values that mold their minds -- thereby molding their actions.

you asked what my educational background was. i'll pm you the info so i don't look like an asshole or something.
Hell, then you might as well consider me on the same side as well....I'm with Rich on this one because I'm of the same frameset as him, except I used to vote strictly Republican, but now that I see how much the Majority Party is buckling over the "leftist" activists and politicians, I only vote for those who hold a platform I consider suitable (and by suitable I mean someone who holds America's core, true values very highly). I voted for Bush in '04, but mainly because Kerry's platform crumbled beneath him due to all the BS mudslinging going on by his campaign managers and the DNC. This next election, unless some suitable candidates come up for office with a solid platform, I am tempted not to vote because I don't like voting based on lesser evils, rather I want to vote on a platform that suits America best.
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Post by retireetx »

I came across this forum while looking for computer info and have found that you have an interesting discourse going. I was wondering if others have been as shocked as I have been by the ignorance of the news media covering this disaster. None seem to realize that we are the "United States" of America and that our form of government is deliberately formulated to greatly protect the rights and empowerment of each State. They do not seem to know that the Mayor, Parish President, and Govenor do not answer to the President.

Also the news media has not been able to provide any real news beyond individual cases of personal tragedy,( not that this isn't also news worthy.) I am sure others would like to see some real specific facts on why and how this became such a disaster? The local politicians are very loud and vocal about blaming everything of the federal government but I suspect this is a mainly a CYA effort to save their jobs but unfortunately their message is about the only thing the news media can provide.

I would also note that because I live near the coast in Texas I was watching the progress of the storm very closely. Based on the News Programs weather forecasting I was surprised and unprepared for the results in New Orleans.
a. The hurricane went in farther west then was continuously forecasted.
b. Supposedly New Orleans had been evacuated.
c. And even as Katrina went ashore the news media reported that New Orleans was saved because it went in east of the city.

So maybe it is understandable that I wasn't the only one that did not quickly realize a herculean effort would be needed.
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Post by -mogwai »

a president can override local elected officials in the case of martial law... in the case of a definite major national disaster, to protect the citizens of the united states, a president can declare martial law. however, IF bush wasn't comfortable with this and decided not to take charge when the local officials were too stupid to, whether it be because he thought that he'd overstep his boundaries or would have had a bad backlash or would have made people think of him as more of a dictator than they already see him, he could have, at the very least, gone and checked out the destruction and/or declared martial law. what took so damn long? i mean... at least a flyby... SOMETHING...

he probably wasn't present whenever they were teaching how to fly over stuff and check out what's up while he was in the air national guard....

i also think it was in poor taste whenever one of bush's first stop was to mourn the destruction of his racist buddy, trent lott's, house. what the balls?
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Post by Sovereign »

It seems to me like everyone is making excuses.
BUSH - "The state/local government didn't ask us to come in, so even if we see suffering we can't do anything because we're tied up in red tape."
LA GOVERNOR - "The Feds didn't come charging in with the calvalry, and we're too bureaucratic to do anything"
LA MAYOR - "The Feds are slow, we don't know who to ask for what."
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Post by Bit_Cloud »

I hate Bush. he's so stupid! :finga:
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Post by mongol05 »

Bit_Cloud wrote:I hate Bush. he's so stupid! :finga:
That really is the weakest statement I've ever heard.

If we're talking in the context of this situation, there was nothing he could do. Keyword: NOTHING! It would be illegal to send in troops, even for aid, without the permission of the state government.

I really have a hard time understanding what people wanted him to do differently. The man is not stupid, he did what he could.
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Post by -mogwai »

mongol05 wrote:
Bit_Cloud wrote:I hate Bush. he's so stupid! :finga:
That really is the weakest statement I've ever heard.

If we're talking in the context of this situation, there was nothing he could do. Keyword: NOTHING! It would be illegal to send in troops, even for aid, without the permission of the state government.

I really have a hard time understanding what people wanted him to do differently. The man is not stupid, he did what he could.
even though bush actually IS stupid (lowest recorded iq of any president), i've gotta agree... it was a weak statement.
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Post by LVCapo »

audiophile wrote:
mongol05 wrote:
Bit_Cloud wrote:I hate Bush. he's so stupid! :finga:
That really is the weakest statement I've ever heard.

If we're talking in the context of this situation, there was nothing he could do. Keyword: NOTHING! It would be illegal to send in troops, even for aid, without the permission of the state government.

I really have a hard time understanding what people wanted him to do differently. The man is not stupid, he did what he could.
even though bush actually IS stupid (lowest recorded iq of any president), i've gotta agree... it was a weak statement.
Thats completely untrue, actually one of those tales thats just circulated.
Listen, its all good and fine to have an opinion, but at some point we need to move on and talk about other things, like computer components and technology.
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