Police Brutality?

[Amy]

Yesterday, while watching Fox2 KTVI, I watched a live police chase go from Maplewood to St. Louis City. It lasted about half an hour, and it ended in a beating. Unfortunately, KTVI's website isn't very good, and it does not have the video of it. KSDK does have the video of the beating, but it isn't at a very good angle.

Reading the St. Louis Post Dispatch, I learned that the suspect's name is Edmon Burns and he is wanted for numerous accounts, which seemed to start (from what I can gather) with him not paying child support. He was arrested, tried to escape, then it escalates from there. Well, yesterday on the news they were saying he rammed a police car and that is what started the chase. I am not reading that in the newspaper this morning. At any rate, the cops successfully blocked him in, he ran, they chased him, caught him, threw him against the wall (that part KTVI did not see), wrestled him to the ground and beat and cuffed him. If you look at KSDK's video, it looks like a simple case of police brutality, but as I watched it yesterday on KTVI, he was obviously resisting violently, and they had to do something to subdue him. I could not tell if the final kicks were before or after he was completely subdued, though. At any rate, The NAACP is already all over this one because Burns is black and the officers are white. There are also investigations into whether the police should have pursued the chase (in Maplewood and St. Louis City, there are laws discouraging most police chases)...

KSDK Story

KTVI Story (short)

KMOV Story

I wish you could have seen the entire video. He was running stoplights, at one point the officers thought he was stopped so they got out and he put their lives in danger because he took off again (assault with a deadly weapon). This isn't the first time he has evaded the police, and I also heard on the news that the plates didn't match the vehicle, and he doesn't even have a driver's license!

Personally, my thought is, if you run from the police, you're asking for trouble. Does anyone else feel this way? Does anyone else share or disagree with this? Also, for everyone else from the STL area, did you see this story and do you have a tidbit of info that you'd like to share?

[Bio-Hazard]

Asking for trouble is one thing, being beaten and punched is another. All they needed to do was get him under control and punching him while he was down was not and is not required.
There are alot of police out there doing a great job and putting their lives in danger everyday, but that's no excuse for beating a suspect regardlessof what he may or may not have done. It's a matter of self control, just like solders in war time.

[kenc51]

Asking for trouble is one thing, being beaten and punched is another. All they needed to do was get him under control and punching him while he was down was not and is not required.
There are alot of police out there doing a great job and putting their lives in danger everyday, but that's no excuse for beating a suspect regardlessof what he may or may not have done. It's a matter of self control, just like solders in war time.

Well said.....how can we trust someone who represents the law, but goes ahead and breaks the law?

There is such a thing as "reasonable force"!
I also understand that cops are people too, so if your stupid enough to p*ss them off, then there is a good chance "reasonable force" will become unreasonable.....It still doesn't excuse the cops for doing it, but Sh1t happens!

Cops have a very hard job...you couldn''t pay me enough to do their job......I can kinda see / agree with both sides.....

[Bio-Hazard]

I totally understand that people are people and stuff happens, but these cops are supposed to be trained to handle the pressure of their jobs, if they can't deal with it, it's time for them to find a different job. I fully understand the problems of how hard it is to maintain self control in situations like these, I was in the military for 20 years in a combat arms field and the same applies there as well, there are laws of war that must be followed and if you violate them, you get punished for it. You just have to maintain your self control and do your job as it's spelled out in the laws.

[Bwall]

I was wondering if someone was going to post it.

Again, we are seeing only bits and pieces of what happened. I have to disagree with Bio on this. For just a moment let's disregard his past and look at the actions that he took yesterday.
Last night at 10 they showed a large portion of the footage and it was literally ripped from Americas Scariest Police chases. The guy is in a full sized van, one of those 80's behemoths, drving pedal to the metal down city streets during the morning comute. He's blowing through red lights at major intersections at speed and swerving into oncoming traffic. At this point he was endangering the lives of everyone on the street. The police were able to fishtail his vehicle in a less populated area, the vehicle slowed and police got out. Before the police were able to apprehend him he got the van moving again, made moves at running over officers on foot, rammed a police car and sped away. A little while later they were able to spin the van again this time putting it in soft ground where it wouldn't budge. He then fled on foot, where he was finally caught, and resisted arrest. He was, as Amy noted above, violently resisting arrest which is why the officers took the actions that they did.

First I want to say I'm very surprised this man isn't dead. The police showed incredible restraint not to open fire when he was driving at them while they were on foot. I'm also thankful that no one really got hurt or killed.

Let's look at this guy's rap sheet. History of violence include actions against police officers, his girlfriend, statuatory rape of a relative of his girlfriend.... the list goes on. He also has multiple warrants for his arrest.

This man totally disregarded the life of anyone but himself and was doing anything that he could to get away. I feel that the police took the actions needed to get the suspect into custody.
At the point of the "brutality" the man is still struggling to get away, the officers have no idea if he has some sort of weapon, just that he is resisting. They were protecting themselves and, more importantly, me and you. The guy was treated at the hospital and released to police custody, so it's not like they brutally beat him.

I'm sorry if my opinion comes off too strong, I just feel that we are hurting ourselves more by punishing those trying to protect us, at the same time sending the message that no matter how terrible of a person you are it's ok to try to kill people if the cops beat your ass.
In another country this man would have already been executed. In the U.S. of A this violent criminal is likely going to be a rich man......only in America.

[Bio-Hazard]

Regardless of what the man did, it's still no reason for the one cop standing off to the side to come up and start kicking him. This same sort of thing happened to my brother years ago when he was a passenger in a car that got stopped for DWI, the driver got mouthy and the cops beat both the driver and my brother so bad that they were both put in the hospital for 2 weeks. The cops said that they both were both resisting arrest, that's a joke in it's self, as my brother doesn't drink and was in the Marine recon at the time, if he wanted to resist arrest, the cops would have been out cold. Face it, there are cops out there that have no self control at all and shouldn't be there. If they lose control, they should answer for it, plain and simple, I could careless who they are, the law is for everyone.

[DeusEx]

i only regret he didnt get serious injuries from the beatings; as far as im concerned he could have killed some one while driving recklessly, and what would you tell the families of those who died ? people like him arent people therefore they dont deserve to be treated humanly. u are free to disagree with me, thats only my opinion.

[-mogwai]

f that. these bastard cops are bad and everyone knows it... unfortunately, they'll walk.

[Amy]

I think that at first, the officers were definitely justified in hitting him to subdue him because he was obviously strongly resisting. However, was there a point when it turned into brutality, and if so, when? Judging from the poor angle of the tape, it appears that the 4th officer had no business walking up and kicking him, but like I said, it was a poor angle. BioHazard, If you would have seen the tape from KTVI, you would probably feel more like I do. It was much more obvious from that perspective how aggressively the guy was trying to get away. However, it did seem that the "beating" went on a little too long...

[Bio-Hazard]

I've seen just about every tape out so far, and I'm still of the opinion that when it started all was fair game, it like so many other times, it went on way to long.
I was living in Europe when the "King" case went down, and the opinion of the people that I knew over there was "what kink of animals do we have in our police force.
That sort of thing happens over in Europe also, but not near as often in my opinion, so I guess I've seen it from there side also. In some Europian countries they go to the extreme with human rights, the bad guys in jail have it better off than a lot of people out in the public.
But regardless of what country you're talking about, there are laws and rights, and the laws and are for everyone, not just a select few.
Granted there are a lot of police states still out there where this sort of action still goes on everyday and no one questions it, but last I heard, the USA is not one of those, and I hope it never comes down to that.

[sbohdan]

Granted there are a lot of police states still out there where this sort of action still goes on everyday and no one questions it, but last I heard, the USA is not one of those, and I hope it never comes down to that.

sorry to let you know buddy: http://www.policestate21.com/news-archive.html

Real ID Act Passed - The End Of America
On Tuesday, May 10, 2005, America became a true police state. Your U.S. senators voted -- unanimously, with no discussion, and without even reading the bill -- to create a national ID card.

This Is America?
I have long had an uneasy relationship with airport security. Before September 11, I resisted the demand that I produce a government-issued ID, believing that it smacked too much of the “Papers, please” of the former Soviet Union that Hollywood movies used to mock and we free Americans used to laugh at.

e.t.c

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/de ... ociety.htm

just read on and open your eyes

[T-Shirt]

Didn't see it, but read the brief.
The guy was way out of control (seems to be an ongoing problem for him, based on his record) and needed to be stopped by any means nessesary, including deadly force, if lesser method didn't work.
When a cop says STOP! you STOP!
however in this case, they may have gone beyond subdueing him, and gone on to punishment (I do understand the frustration they must feel, after his repeated endangering citizens and other officers.)
The police must be able to set aside their own anger, and never step outside the law.
If the FBI investigation shows excessive force, the penalty for the officers should be severe.

[T-Shirt]

Real ID Act Passed - The End Of America
On Tuesday, May 10, 2005, America became a true police state. Your U.S. senators voted -- unanimously, with no discussion, and without even reading the bill -- to create a national ID card.

This Is America?
I have long had an uneasy relationship with airport security. Before September 11, I resisted the demand that I produce a government-issued ID, believing that it smacked too much of the “Papers, please” of the former Soviet Union that Hollywood movies used to mock and we free Americans used to laugh at.

I'm not opposed to a national ID, if it really effectively works, and still allows constatutional protections.
If someone accused of a crime, is to be released on PR (extremely common in all forms of arrest, including moving volations) I want the authorities to a} know who it really is and b} KNOW where the can find that person should PR/bail be revoked.
Current actions by the Bush Admin et al, of stepping around established legal proceedures, undermine the belief of people the a fair system is there and works to protect their rights.
police brutality is also doing this, people are less likely to obey a lawful order, if the may be putting themselves in danger of a beating/worse.

[kenc51]

What ever happend to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY???

There used to be an unwritten rule (@ least here), that if say a teenager steals a car...instead of him going to court and ruining his life with a criminal record, the cops would take him into a cell and beat the crap out of him.....with his parents waiting outside to take him home to do it all again....
It worked....the courts wasn't clogged up with minor cases and kids still could get a visa to work over in the US/AUS etc. (no record)
I think part of the prob is that cops still live by that law in-part.... (this can't work anymore for obvious reasons ;))

Now in this case, it looks like the cops are pis**d off and the was unfortunate..if it wasn't him, then some other kid would have gotten a beating some place else....mayby they should be looking @ the reason why cops are soo fustrated and have such short fuses!

As Bio said...they are trained and represent the law...they should have more control...If they can't control themselves, then they should go back into training.

Also remember there are alot of good cops out there who endanger their lives for us everyday without any praise too...! (now go out and "hug a cop" LOL)

2$

[Tim Burton]

i only regret he didnt get serious injuries from the beatings; as far as im concerned he could have killed some one while driving recklessly, and what would you tell the families of those who died ? people like him arent people therefore they dont deserve to be treated humanly. u are free to disagree with me, thats only my opinion.

Exactly. He ran, endangered hundreds of people and people feel that cops are wrong for tossing a blow or two at a guy who just risked hundreds of lives.

Considering the circumstances, it is human nature to be high on adrenaline and to take a couple of punches at the guy who just attempted to kill hundreds of people including yourself.

It always amazes me that people will look past the wrongs a criminal committed in order to blame a cop for doing something in the heat of the moment.

[Tim Burton]

What ever happend to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY???

Doesn't exist. It is a political theory that was not given in all states until about the last 75 years. In fact, in the 20s many gangsters were gunned down, because the police felt that if their crime is definate and known and they pose a risk, it is acceptable to kill them.

I do believe in a high speed chase deadly force SHOULD be used. Their crimes are seen, known and they are attempting the death of innocents.

[kenc51]

I do believe in a high speed chase deadly force SHOULD be used. Their crimes are seen, known and they are attempting the death of innocents.

Over here in Europe, we do the opposite...We never join a high speed chase!
It only causes the criminals to drive even more dangerously. The cops will just watch them from a helecoptor and setup a trap further down the road.
Cops in Dublin will NEVER join a high speed chase anymore...2 cops died a few years back chasing 2 13yr old joyriders!

Considering the circumstances, it is human nature to be high on adrenaline and to take a couple of punches at the guy who just attempted to kill hundreds of people including yourself.

It always amazes me that people will look past the wrongs a criminal committed in order to blame a cop for doing something in the heat of the moment.

Sure I'd expect 1 or 2 extra punches...but even then, as soon a the suspect is subdued he sould be treated with respect. Stooping to a criminals level doesn't help.
Also if you allow some "extra punches" slide then what happens when a cop arrests someone who is innocent? The rules are there for a reason, and how can people respect the justice system when don't follow them either?

[Antonik]

COOOOL

[Sovereign]

If we allow the police to do "whatever it takes to uphold the law" we're asking for trouble. Sometimes, the good guys have to take it and suck it up, cause we have to prove we're better than the scum we're dealing with. Besides, even though someone may be bad to the atom, we still give them a fair trial (Saddam Hussein, anyone?) It's the price of democracy. Winston Churchill once said "Democracy is the worst form of government, after all the others."

[Amy]

Over here in Europe, we do the opposite...We never join a high speed chase!
It only causes the criminals to drive even more dangerously. The cops will just watch them from a helecoptor and setup a trap further down the road.
Cops in Dublin will NEVER join a high speed chase anymore...2 cops died a few years back chasing 2 13yr old joyriders!

That's part of the investigation here -- should the cops have pursued the chase in the first place? There are laws about when it is and is not okay to pursue the chase, and I don't believe it is clear whether or not these officers were acting inside that law. I think that for that community, the suspect has to pose an immediate threat, and I am not sure he did. When the chase was happening, the newscasters were saying something about him ramming a police car and that's what started it, but now all I hear about is he just drove away from a gas station without paying and his plates didn't match the vehicle or something dumb like that.

Also, did you all see pics of him today? He's wearing a neck brace and using a cane. I don't doubt he was bruised up pretty badly, but a neck brace and cane? C'mon...

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